She Was #2 in the Space Force. Then They Called Her Dishonorable

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8,446 words · 50:14 runtime

00:00 Cold Open & Introduction

0:00 She helped build the United States Space Force from the ground up. She was ranked number two in the entire service for promotion to colonel. And then with no warning, the government told her she was undisiplined, dishonorable, and a liar. And they wouldn't even let her wear her own uniform to say goodbye. This is the story of a 23-year career that started on the morning of 9/11 and ended not with a retirement ceremony, but with a three-star general warning her she could still be charged under the UCMJ just for speaking out. Colonel Brie Fram, retired US Space Force and Air Force officer, astronautical engineer, author, and now congressional candidate. She didn't leave service. Service left her. And she's not done fighting. In this episode, she breaks down what it actually felt like to come out inside the Pentagon. How authenticity made her team better and what happened in a room full of admirals and generals on her last day that stopped everyone cold.

0:59 I'm Mike Koras and this is Voice for Valor. Today's guest has lived a life defined by service in the highest stakes places. A journey driven by curiosity, commitment, and conscience. Colonel Brie Fram is a retired US Space Force and Air Force officer, an astronautical engineer, an author and editor, a speaker, and a storyteller, and now a candidate for US Congress. carrying her service into a new arena of public life. She commissioned in the wake of 911, served in an operational deployments deployments in Iraq and Qatar, developed strategic space acquisition policy at the Pentagon, led inclusion initiatives, co-authored books about transgender military service, and helped build the Space Force itself. Her career didn't end by choice. It ended because a policy barred her from continuing to serve. An ending that became a new beginning. As Brie stepped into advocacy and now into the electoral politics. This is not a story

2:17 about conflict alone. It's about conviction, authenticity, and the courage to serve even when that service is contested. Bri, welcome to Voice for Valor. >> Oh, Mike, it's a pleasure to join you. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. and thanks for having me. >> Absolutely. So before we talk roles and assignments, how do you define service in its rawest sense, not its ceremonial one? Oo, that is a deep question. I I think where I look at service is really it's answering the question of who is this for? Is it for me or is it for all of us? If it's for all of us, that's service. And that's where I think the

02:45 How Bree Defines Service

3:00 military is such a great example of what service looks like because no one is there in a role that is just for them. They are all part of something that is part of something much much larger than any one of us. And it is about all of us. It is about ensuring the freedoms that gave us the opportunity to choose the military, choose to serve and make sure that's there for generations to come. though fundamentally that's how I see service is who's it for? >> Who's it for? >> What moment in your life made you realize you wanted to answer this call of service? >> It was 911. Uh without a doubt. I grew up uh and I hope this is a story we get into a little more in a family that had incredible military history. But despite that, I had no intention of joining the military. Uh, I graduated college in 2001 with my aerospace engineering degree. And I was looking for jobs. I applied to NASA and to Boeing, Lockheed, Northrup, Grumman, all those big

4:04 organizations cuz I just wanted to help humanity expand into the stars and be part of this amazing future that I know we're going to have in space. But as I was applying for those jobs, we were attacked and my worldview changed. I mean, really, in an instant. I wrote a letter to friends and family about what

04:10 The 9/11 Moment That Changed Everything

4:25 I'd learned just a day or two after I watched the towers fall. And by that weekend, as I was driving up uh to see my girlfriend, who is now my wife, it was a 2-hour drive uh and there was an American flag hanging from an overpass on Interstate 35 uh between Minneapolis and Duth, Minnesota. The thing that I had done that drive so many times that I could do it on autopilot. I saw that flag, broke into tears, cried for an hour, walked into my girlfriend's apartment, and said, "I'm going to join the Air Force. This is what it will be for me to defend the freedoms and opportunities that men like my grandfathers and so many others had fought for to give me the choice. And right now, I'm choosing to serve because I realized the freedom was free." And it had to be a choice made by every generation to defend it. So, did you grow up in Minnesota? Is that where you're you're from? >> I did. Um, much of my family remains there. It was a beautiful place to be

5:28 from. I like to think it gave me a an incredible moral foundation. I think we've seen that a lot over the past month. I've had a lot of phone call with friends in Minnesota that both break my heart and renew my spirit at the same time. a friend of mine from way back when, now a high school teacher, uh, at a city school in the Twin Cities, and him talking about the fact that a third of his students weren't showing up because they were too afraid to leave their houses. And for him as an adoptee, um, with skin that didn't look like mine to have to carry his passport everywhere he went, in the effect putting us as a show me your papers society. And that's one of the things that I learned about as being incredibly problematic. I had family that got out of Germany and Poland in the 30s and 40s and they had those Nazi passbooks stamped with a bright red jade at the classic movie where you get that Nazi character, show

6:29 me your papers. That was what they had to show in that case. And we have Americans doing the same thing, just trying to be safe and prove that they belong here. Here's where our paths connect. and we didn't even realize it at the time. So you graduated college in the uh the Minnesota area. My sister lived in Minnesota and so um one summer she asked me to come out and basically look after my my niece uh while I was in college. So I lived there for a summer and uh took care of my niece and worked at Don Pablo's Mexican kitchen near the me near the Mall of America. And one thing I realized about my time in Minnesota, everybody was so unbelievably kind. I I did not meet somebody that just wasn't genuinely a nice person. And then also as the things going on in the news right now, when I was working at this Mexican kitchen, one of the waiters there was was an immigrant. He was from Mexico, but at the time we still had

7:28 open border policies. So he would actually work in the United States and then take his money home at the end of the year and support his family in Mexico. That was the first person I ever actually met that still went to and from the border like that. Um but yeah, I mean what's going on in Minnesota right

07:30 Growing Up in Minnesota & Immigration Today

7:44 now, it's just it it's sad for both sides. I feel really bad for our law enforcement folks that have to just, you know, do their job. One of my best friends growing up was in law enforcement, so I feel bad for them for the fact that they still have to do their job. But yeah, what's going on right now is is just tragic. So, um, we were we were closer than you think cuz I worked at the Mall of America through college uh at a at a store there. Uh, and I think what what you kind of mentioned speaks to the value that immigration has offered for our country. There was a study published just a week or two ago by the Kato Institute that said the amount of input immigrants have given to our economy just over the past 30 years is a 14.5 trillion dollar surplus compared to any benefits they've received at all levels federal to local to state government and that was people that were here legally and otherwise. So they're adding to the fabric of America

8:44 both economically and as Minnesota has shown us, they're our neighbors. They're our friends. They add a lot of value to who we are. They are the American story. I'm glad you brought up the economics piece because I I discuss these economics all the time with folks. And what I try to explain is our economy is dependent upon 3% GDP, gross domatic gross domestic product. if you don't have a birth rate of at least 2.1 within the United States, you need to grow enough to maintain that 3% GDP. And then the counterargument they say is, well, you know, I don't care about immigration. I just want to make sure it's legal immigration. Like, once again, our legal immigration has has just been decimated. We're cutting so many opportunities to come to the United States. So, in a way, I don't think it's just illegal immigration. I I think it's the fact that just immigration in itself in this past year I believe was the first in over 50 years that we've

9:37 actually had negative uh migration in the United States and right now there are so many Americans that are afraid of what the federal government is going to do to them that we have actually become a source of refugees. The United States has historically been a beacon to them. Politically, that's what the Statue of Liberty is. And and that great poet, send them send us your tired, your hunnled masses, yearning to breathe free. Instead, we're exporting people like that right now because they're so afraid. Maybe not for what's going to happen to them, but what's going to happen to their uh and that really breaks my heart when I think about America having that image where people are fleeing because they're afraid here at home. I want to talk a little bit about your your your career in time in uniform. Um your career spanned more than two decades, including the standup of the US Space Force. How did it feel to be part of building something entirely new? I

10:36 was so excited when the Space Force finally sent me the email that said, "You've been selected. Would you like to join the Space Force?" It felt like a marriage proposal. And I was like, "Yes, yes." A thousand times, yes. This is forever. because that was my dream. Uh my animating principle other than you know joining and serving was uh which a friend of mine made me watch over my objection when I was about 9 10 years old. I watched Star Trek the Next Generation. I'm like I'm going to be Jordy. I'm going to make the warp engines go and I'm going to help solve all the galaxy's toughest problems. So, with that as kind of my spirit, having literally seen a crew come together from different worlds and work to make things happen, I'm like, this is what we can do in the Space Force. Not only do we have the cool opportunity to select people, I mean, who really want to be, we have cool tech, we have amazing people, but it was an opportunity to create a 21st

11:38 century military culture and to do something new to shed some of the baggage of literally a 19th century past and some military policies that we could say, "Okay, let's let's try this in different ways. Let's make sure that we treat people as individuals. we get the most out of them. We allow them to be their best self and actually form those cohesive bonds with the people around you that are the hallmark of high performing teams. So more than anything, even though I loved the tech, it was the people, it was the culture that was really exciting to help build. Were you an acquisition officer before the Space Force transition? Yeah. So my entire career as a developmental engineer uh which means you know enough about engineering but a lot of your job is acquisition. It is program management. So you go back and forth across the acquisition life cycle from designing, developing, planning to acquisition, operations, support, maintenance. Uh we

12:37 do all of that. Uh and it was fascinating for me to have a number of assignments that worked across that entire life cycle. Uh, and it was a ton of fun to see systems that I worked on in my the beginning of my career become reality and in some cases help take technology directly from the laboratory to the battlefield and see that in an incredibly short period of time go from concept to saving lives. That was amazing to be part of. Right now, the Department of War has changed a lot of our acquisition process trying to streamline some of these things. Are there any examples in the space force where you saw being an individual force allowed you to streamline or get some of

13:00 Why America Is a Refugee Source

13:18 these get some of these products to the war fighter center? >> So, first just to hit the the Department of War piece because uh as someone who has had to change a name, uh I recognize something in that and you know it's not their legal name. They would have to go to Congress and and ask for that to be changed. So, it's it's their goby. It's their call sign. It's what they want us to respect. Yet, I don't know, maybe this is what the president means when he says transgender for everybody. You know, we're starting with the cabinet. Uh so, the Department of Defense has uh certainly done done some things. And so, if you want anything about a trans person uh talking about name changes, we we absolutely can can go there. Uh but yeah, we saw some things in acquisition reform that were about how do we make things faster? That hasn't always been the goal. What can we cut? And that was a huge part of what I did in the space

14:18 force as we took legacy processes that were either from the Department of Defense or in many cases from the Department of the Air Force like how do we do things differently? And there was one on getting some approvals where there was a 13-step process that we inherited from the Air Force. And I got to write the revision to that policy along with my team and we cut it to four. Like there is there is no reason for any of these things where we're just sending paperwork back to one another. Let's cut everywhere we can >> to be as fast and efficient as possible because at the end of the day, that's what we're there for. We are there to turn the American taxpayers dollars into capability and we need to do that quickly so that we stay far enough ahead of our adversaries that they won't even think about challenging them because that's the other area of of major difference that I have with the current administration and their concept of what

15:15 is a military for to me it's there to prevent wars from ever happening and only if they do we are going to kick so much ass that it is over in a heartbeat. But it is not to start wars. It is not to be the world's bully that causes our allies to send troops to defend allied territory against us. That's not who we are. I know for one I never signed up for a department of war. I would not have signed up for a department of war. We are there to defend and to protect. That's one of the things that I try to explain to people as a senior military officer. I retired as a colonel as at the same rank as you that people don't realize the more senior you become in these military institutions, you're much less likely to want to go to war. You you see all the ramifications of going to war. You understand exit strategies. you understand the cost of health care and the VA and all these decisions that are financially you're responsible for 30 years later after

16:24 that conflict that as a senior military leader I I try to avoid war at all cost and you get that viewpoint that also shows you how does the entire government work together to prevent war. We can go back again and again to Secretary Mattis testifying that says if you don't want me to spend money on bullets fully fund the State Department >> because it is by allies that is by shared strength that you have that aura of deterrent. >> No one wants to mess with you because you have friends in every place and you will come together and you will prevent and win conflict if it should start. So yeah, we need to understand the full aspect of how our government works together to prevent conflict and make that the focus. We only fight if we have to. Similar to Mattis and Fallujah, um there were times where he was trying to avoid going into Fallujah and he said, "But listen, if we if we go in, you've got to let me do this my way. This cannot be war by proxy

17:20 Joining the Space Force

17:29 of Vietnam where we're making all these political decisions in inside, you know, the DC metro area. You got, if I'm going to go in, we're going in with overwhelming force and it's not going to be pretty. >> Yeah, we we learned that in in Desert Storm. Uh I mean, we learned the lessons of Vietnam. We implied them and then we struggled with that again. Uh so we know how to win and winning is never a half-ass thing. you go for it and you make it happen. And that's what I think we need to do today in so many ways too. And one of the things that animates my ser continuing service is when you see something and you know something can be done about it, go for it. This is not a half-assed effort. This is putting everything into it because I believe in democracy, because I believe in our constitution and we need to be better. back to your service. Um, you came out publicly as transgender at a pivotable moment, pivotal moment when policy

18:31 allowed open service, but now what did that decision feel like personally and professionally? Being able to be myself was a gift. >> And I say that not just as a gift to me. That was a gift to my team. It was a gift to our force. Because when you're in the closet, if you are hiding a piece of yourself, and I I think this is something almost all of us can relate to, or if you have a work self that is different from who you really are, >> you are spending mental energy with your shields up. If we want to go to a Star Trek reference, all right, full power to the shield. But when you get to drop those shields, um, it's like stopping paying attacks where I'm thinking about what do I say about where I was this weekend or what do I say about what I like, uh, who I like, who I love. If you don't have to think about protecting yourself, you get to rededicate all that energy to the mission, to the people around you. So you can be good at your

19:31 job, you might even be great at your job, but if you're hiding yourself, protecting who you are, you're never going to be as good as you possibly can be. So that's why when I came out and after I sent an email, I put a Facebook post out to the world as soon as the Secretary of Defense was done speaking, I did worry like what's the reaction going to be because this is out there now. Um, and after about an hour away where I did run off to the gym in the Pentagon and I got on the elliptical and went nowhere faster than I'd ever gone anywhere in my life, um, I sat back down at my desk. My colleagues walked over to me one by one, shook my hand, and quit. And we were a better team after that. I wasn't hiding. We had those bonds. We did amazing things behalf of this country. What year was that when you came out amongst your >> that was in 2016 in June >> 2016 >> and then now uh policies have shifted and that inclusion was revoked. What did

20:34 that reversal feel like? Not just as an officer but as someone who believed deeply in their service. Well, it hurt even knowing it was coming. We had an attempt during the first Trump administration uh to ban us and and that was successful in terms of allowing no new trans people to come into the service or if you were already in service, you could not come out and access care. Uh but it allowed those of us who had already come out to continue serve. It was a ban. This time around, we knew it was coming again. It was like watching a hurricane form offshore and you're like, "Where's it going to hit? How strong are the winds going to be?" And it was devastating because this time beyond the ban, it was also a purge. It was everyone who was serving Europe. There's no exception. And it was also an attack on our character because the executive order that said that we were no longer allowed to serve called us undisiplined, dishonorable liars who

21:35 lacked the humility required for military service. That was challenged. There were court cases in two different district courts. Uh the judges found that there was no evidence to support any claim made by the government except animus. I mean pure hatred. And one pointed out and said the service records of the plaintiffs before her were exhibit a as to why there was no evidence backing the government's claim. Because the government would say again and again they we failed to meet standards. Well, look at 20 years worth of performance reports that says meets or exceeds in my case alone. And that is replicated all across the board. There

22:00 20 Years in Acquisition — Concept to Saving Lives

22:19 are people who have deployed, who have commanded, who have done every job the military has asked of them and they kick ass. They earned the respect of the people to their left and right who they counted on and who counted on them. So to see people being thrown out for something that had nothing to do with their ability to serve, it ripped my heart into really into a million pieces because I served with many of them. I helped tell their stories and their stories have a lasting impact. But I want to offer you one of those stories from my final week in service and how it showed me that I think we won the fight within the military. Just like the arguments that were thrown against African-Americans, against women, against lesbians and gay folks, there were these repeated arguments that we were unwilling, unable to serve. And now, can you imagine a military without African-Americans? I hope it's the same way about us because the last day I walked into a

23:22 meeting with the joint staff or a couple days before and because the space force is so small, we send someone who is one or two ranks below what every other service said. So the room full of admirals in general and me and it just so happens that as we go around the table at the end, I'm lost. All right, Space Force, what do you got? I provided one work-related up update on a requirement package we were working and I said, "I'm sorry, this is going to be my last meeting. I don't know when there's going to be a replacement. Uh, this is an unexpected departure." So, the officer sitting next to me, "Hi, what assignment did you get? Where are you going?" And they're like, "Well, I do not meet this administration's definition of military excellence and readiness," which was the title of the executive order. And silence kind of fell on the room couple seconds as what that meant. And the scene from 2016 in a weird way

24:21 repeated itself because those admirals in general stood up, walked over to me, shook my hand, but this time with the sadness of past tense and it an honor to have served with you. And I held it back mostly until I made it out into the hall. I leaned against the wall of the U- Ring corridor and I just cracked. Um because it was the honor of my lifetime to serve, to learn, to work alongside so many incredible people, and to advance the interests of the American people and the world. And I miss it dearly that the uniform was taken away from me that I can no longer even wear it. couldn't wear it to my own retirement ceremony or if I were to swear someone in, I would be brought up on charges for wearing my own uniform because every action taken by this administration has been so cruel in addition to being just get out. The cruelty knows no bounds. >> You couldn't even wear your uniform to your retirement ceremony? >> Not without cutting my hair, taking out

25:27 my earrings, and not being who I was. Against our wishes, the Department of Defense changed back all of our service records uh to those that we signed up as for me 23 years earlier and said, "If you wear your uniform, we will bring you up on charge for being out of uniform." And it it got worse, too. who I was summoned

25:30 Cutting 13 Steps to 4 at the Pentagon

25:55 in a week before I was retired and told by a three star, "You are still subject to the UCMJ after you retire." Like, are are you threatening to mark killing me? Is is this what's going on? Are you just trying to silence? And maybe he thought he was protecting me or something. But that hurt like I know what my rights are. I have right as a citizen, first amendment rights, so I'm going to use them. You can threaten me all you want, but if the uniform gave me anything, even if it's a uniform you say I can't wear anymore, I have the courage to do right on behalf of others. And I'm going to keep doing Let me be devil's advocate for a minute here. Um, because we have a lot of listeners and viewers from both sides of the aisle. I want to put you in the shoes of, you know, the the current administration. So, let's say that you're the you're the Pete Hegsath today and they look at the previous administration and they say, "Look, you know, the left, you guys went way

27:13 too far left. You were so focused on that, you know, that 1% that's such a small piece of that's such a small community in our service that you ignored the bulk of our future recruits. Like you mentioned, African-Americans. So, if if the bulk of our recruits are African-American, Hispanic, uh, white men from, you know, lower middle class, rural communities, if we're not meeting our numbers, how would you do this differently to make sure that everybody's included under the tent? >> Well, I think I would reject the premise because the numbers say a very different story. Um, 30% of our recruiting age population right now identifies as members of the LGBT population. Are we really going to say you're not wanted here? Particularly if we face a shortage. 30% is a lot when we have a lot of Americans that don't meet standards for any other reason. And the argument they the administration made over and over again was that this was about standard. And I again tell me what

28:21 standard I didn't meet. Tell me when I was undeployable. Tell me when I was doing something that did not live up to the expectation. I mean, I had been out for nearly 10 years. When I was selected for promotion to colonel, I was the number two person in the service based on my record alone. And again, that's not just me. that is thousands of other trans circ members who had to do their job under the harshest spotlight because pe there were some people watching for them to flip out and that pressure is intense and yet they thrived they over and over again and I want to offer one other example um I was at the Pentagon when we were going to hold a

29:00 Why Senior Officers Avoid Conflict

29:11 10-year anniversary event for the repeal of don't ask don't tell that allowed lesbians gays and bisexuals to serve openly And at the time, the under secretary of the air force asked for people to show up in the courtyard of the Pentagon who uh had served through them because she wanted to recognize them for their service. We're walking out there. She turns to an aid and says, "There's no way any of these people are old enough to have served during don't ask don't tell." And the response was, "You're right, man. These are people serving today because don't ask don't tell is gone." So what we should be doing if we're worried about how many people are eligible for service is opening the aperture as broad as we possibly can be setting the standard and letting people meet it. If you can meet the standard and you have a willingness to serve, serve because it is about all of us and we should want anyone who is willing to

30:06 raise their hand, swear that oath and serve on behalf of the American people. I grew up in a very conservative family. um a very um Christian family. I was taught to, you know, fear gaze, a lot of the the rhetoric that we talk about today. And uh my mom is a nurse and three or four years ago, she mentioned that there was a trans nurse in in her clinic that she was working. And after about a year year or two of working together, that member became her favorite person in the office. And now she's an advocate for all the things that were indoctrinated into me as a young person. And and thankfully um I was taught and lost some of that ignorance and appreciation for everyone. But it's it's always nice to hear these stories of folks that are fearful of a community and then once they get to know that particular person, that particular community, they realize, "Oh my gosh, we all really are actually the same." It's the classic boogeyman. You know, if

31:13 you're a small enough portion of the population, it's easy for people to other you, to tell stories about you, to create stereotypes about you that are so far from the truth. I mean, the stories told about trans women like me, they, you know, we would be a weeping mess that could never return fire from our foxhole because we were too busy worrying about what we were going to wear tonight. No absolute nonsense. But it is that opportunity as soon as we're face to face, we get to find that we root for the same sports team, we like the same restaurant, whatever it is that allows you to bond over some shared aspect of humanity. You can break those stereotypes so quickly. And that's why I think again within the military, we won. We changed the culture by showing up even if there was only 10,000 of us. That means there's hundreds of thousands of people if not millions of people that worked with all of us that saw our

32:09 competence that saw our commitment and we had the opportunity to change their mind even if they believed something else about us. >> So I mentioned that story about from my mom and then you've mentioned a few stories. So, I know that you are an editor and a writer. So, you've edited and written books about transgender military service and queer leadership. Why was capturing those narratives important? For just this reason, shatter those stereotypes. Not only show that there's no one way to be trans, but there's no one way to be trans in the military, and that we are just as varied and diverse as everyone else that serves. And I like to say about me and I think everyone whose story I captured in there being trans is probably the 17th most interesting thing about any of those people and and I always worry when I say that someone's like tell me the 16 more interesting things and I'm like but I would figure it out eventually and so would they. And so it's collections

33:07 of stories that are funny that are heartbreaking that are just classically as American as apple pie of this person wanted to serve. They had some barriers in front of them. They overcame them and now look at them. And that plus the leadership book that I wrote, I think really informs the way I lead, the way I understand things and encourages me and I think encourages others to instead of embracing kind of this bullying hazing culture that is so pervasive in America and still in some aspects in our military where you you put on someone and say, "I went through some and until you go through the same I'm not going to respect you." Instead, we flip it and it's like, I went through some really terrible things and hurt and it was hard. So, what I'm going to do because you're going to have enough adversity in your life regardless is I'm going to knock down that barrier that I had to overcome so by the time you make it to where I am, you have the energy to

34:09 go further. And I think that's a critical mindset for our military because it has to be about how are we better tomorrow than we are today. So, if we can knock down the things that are bureaucratic nonsense or that are just simply hurdles placed in a way that aren't developmental, let's get rid of those. Let's allow the generation coming

34:15 Coming Out at the Pentagon in June 2016

34:28 up behind us to go even further, do even more. Speaking of bureaucratic nonsense, what point in your, you know, your recent memory, your career, did you decide to enter the world of elected politics? I mean, talk about you're already a transparent person putting on for the world to see all these, you know, all all of these um these things about you. But now, what's that extra level of scrutiny you're going to get in the political world? Well, I wanted to serve for years, if not a decade or more to come. Oh, I I fought. I pushed back. I walked up to the line and stood on it. I never crossed it, but I stood on it and I shouted with everything I had while I was still in service on top of doing my job and doing it the right way without partisan bias or or politization. But I told people's story and I was willing to fight that fight as long as I possibly could. And I told people I would have done it until I was

35:33 dragged away. But when the Supreme Court on emergency appeal from the government said, "Okay, you can fire all these people right now." It was the first time I had to realize I have to do something else. There has to be a what's next. Was my way in choosing between I could go out and get an advocacy job. I could work for an organization defending democracy. Um because I did not countenance going back and working in the defense or aerospace indust ind industry right now. I love it. I love technology. I love space. I want to make that stuff happen still. But I've learned and I've developed a skill set that is focused on taking care of others and fighting for the future. And politics was the answer. Because if I could do this, if I like so many other transmilitary people have shown that trans folks can thrive in those most difficult of environments, let's keep doing that in other areas. But it's not about me that I can do this. It's about

36:39 how can we do this? How can the country be better? And if along the way to winning a seat in Congress, I can also do just what I talked about for knocking down barriers, showing others that yes, even you can engage in the political process. You can run for office. You can work on a staff. You can be part of a campaign. Great. And I can also give people hope that we can get through this. That maybe we don't need to have people fleeing this country. We should have people instead saying, "I want to fight for what we have, who we know we are, and who we can be." That's why I'm in politics. Give a vision of a better future. For young people watching this who feel torn between being authentic and fitting in, what would you tell them? You know, there's a lot of psychology that we learn. I mean, we can go to things like Maslo's hierarchy of needs. Safety is is number one. Like if you are physically unsafe, sometimes there's a

37:41 need to to protect yourself and everyone's circumstance is going to be different. But what I can say is when you can be yourself, when you can be authentic, it is such a gift. It is so amazing. uh you by being yourself and loving yourself, understanding yourself, you radiate that out into the world and it comes back to you. It's not just trans people. It's not just queer people that feel this. I I know I I mentioned this earlier that is all people that have a different work self than authentic self. Um there was a three-star Navy admiral uh that that came and spoke to a class and he said it wasn't until I got my third star and this a heterosexual Christian white man. He said it wasn't until that third star that I felt like I could remove my heavy cloak and be myself. It shouldn't be that way. No one should feel that kind of pressure that you have to conform. Yes. in the military and in other structures. There are rules we we

38:40 How Authenticity Made Her Team Better

38:45 have to follow. There are things that allow us to bond with one another, shared morals and values. They're incredibly important, but there's room for individuality in that. There's room for authenticity. Uh I think about it as it's a pathway for connection. When we're our authentic selves, when we're a little vulnerable with who we are, it's not a weakness as an opening in our armor. That's reaching out that thing. Connect with me. Let's figure it out. let's work together on stuff. >> As a senior leader, I shared a lot of my personal weaknesses with the folks I led. And it was such, as you describe, it was such a relief. I I I had a a woman from another um another group when I was a group commander that she came up and hugged me in the hallway saying, "Thank you for for sharing your story. And I said, you know, rather than thanking me, why don't we encourage others to share their stories as well? Because when you when you when you share

39:51 your weaknesses, when you let people know that you're having a bad day or you let people know your shortcomings, they it just humanizes you. Where where have we lost that where you need this machismo and you have to be this tough person all the time and not show that human side? I I wish I knew because for me before I transitioned I thought I was putting out into the world I'm authentic. I'm I'm open to your your issues, your challenges. But I learned I was walking around with with a shield in front of me like I was Captain America. And that's how people saw me like I was perfect or invulnerable. That when you have that gives off the impression that I'm so good, why would I care about you? And so when I transitioned and and in a weird way, this is a bit of an a backhand against women too that people will bring women their problems far more easily. And so like great, I'm glad you recognize me as who I am, but it was coming out and

40:55 lowering that shield. like as a commander my my lieutenants all of a sudden were in my office bringing me their problems you know that were personal training and like where was this before and we were able to solve those personal problems that were bleeding over into work and it made them better at work and they were just happier people so I think that is critically important when we share a piece of our humanity our vulnerability also comes back to us because people think we care even if we knew we would have cared anyways and been there for they might not see it that way. So that's where sharing that really matters is it opens pathways to solve problems together and you get so much more effort. You get so much more buyin from your team knowing that they can come to you and uh you know behind closed doors share a a personal thought. You just get the maximum out of your team. Yeah. >> And I wish that you know you said you

41:52 authored a book on leadership. Why is it so difficult for folks to accept that type of leadership? I mean, is it progressive? I I don't know. But it seems to really rub a lot of people the wrong way. >> I think we're we are brought up in this culture that just says be perfect. Don't admit weakness. Uh and it will be used

42:00 What the Courts Actually Found

42:14 against you if you do. Um and it's just a tough thing to get past psychologically. But when we do that, when we are able to acknowledge our faults, I think that's really powerful because that also focuses on on the other thing we we say we want people to have, which is a growth mindset. And if you are putting out into the world that you're perfect, there's no growth from perfect. Uh how do you take a step forward if you're actually better at this? I can be better at engaging on both an emotional and an intellectual level. I can not only tell you that they care, I can show you that I care. And we have that classic statement of, you know, people aren't going to remember you >> from what you told them. They're going to remember whether or not you cared. Uh, and that's something we have to get past. So true. So, okay, you've you've got some superhero metaphors. You mentioned Captain America. You mentioned Star Trek. Who was your Captain America in

43:16 your youth that even inspired you to start seeking this military path? You mentioned that you had a a large military family background. >> Both my grandparents have incredible stories. Um, one uh was the son of immigrants from from Latvia and Ukraine. uh and he served as a pe lieutenant and uh in the army signal corps >> twice was behind enemy lines in Germany. Uh in one case he was 20 miles away from the army with his 20 men uh and captured the entire town city really of Solen over 100,000 people by creating some false signals intelligence following phone lines into town walking into city hall and saying you're surrounded surrender and they did. Thousands of German prisoners from the countryside were held by his 20 men until the army caught up several days later. I mean, guile and truly incredible career that he had in just a couple of years. Uh, but my other grandfather who got out of Nazi Germany in 1936, uh, thanks to a tiny window in the

44:24 Berlin Olympics where he got on a midnight train to Paris the day before the SS came to arrest the family. Um, he as soon as he was able, I'm old enough raised his hand and said, "Send me back. I know what evil is." >> Wow. He rose to become the youngest first sergeant in the European theater of operations of the tanker. Uh twice uh awarded the Bronze Star for valor. Uh offered a battlefield commission which he turned down so he could stay with his unit. I mean maybe he wanted to stay in the tanks rather than move to the infantry. But the story he didn't tell. I just have the I turned it down to stay with my unit. Uh and his exploits were were amazing. Uh personally yelled at by Patton to rip all that goddamn armor off the tanks. >> Wow. uh to so they could move a little faster as they were taking ground at the end of the war. An amazing legacy and he was a he was a big inspiration when I was commissioned. He came it was the last time he ever traveled. He came,

45:26 he gave me my first aloon. And then uh afterwards, I went back to his hotel room and I I sat down on the bed and there's photographic evidence of this. He gave me one of his bronze stars in a plaque that says, "Courage does not always roar. It's the quiet voice at the end of the day that I will do my best again tomorrow." And the look on my face at that time was confusion. I didn't get it then as a 23-year-old brand new second lieutenant. I should have told you now and what he was trying to say about how many times you knocked down. And it's about getting back up, taking that next step and keeping fighting because sometimes it isn't that that day, that moment that but it's going to be being there for the next one. And um he got to know the real me at the end near the end of his life and was my biggest supporter. Every time I was promoted, he would get the biggest biggest smile and his eyes would go wide. Wow. A captain, a major. No way.

46:43 Oh, Lieutenant Colonel. That's That's incredible. And not too long after I was promoted a lieutenant colonel, clearly the day the ban on trans people went back into place in 2019 in the first Trump administration, had to drive home back to Minnesota to my family. It was going to be his 95th birthday party. Got there. My mom said, "You need to go see your grandfather right away. He's in the office." and like, "Yeah, of course." So, I go, "He's in his in the bed in a haze, drugged." Um, I squeeze his hand and he gets that thing seeing me and he fades back. I sit there for a couple hours. Um, as family comes and goes, I'm going to try one more time. So before I leave, go and squeeze his hand tight and he looks he gets the same white eyes and just like the plaque says, "Keep doing what you're doing." And those are the last words he spoke. Um, and I I was lucky enough to have a memoir of his that he wrote and he was a

47:53 terrible author. Great story, the worst writing. Uh, but I learned in there he didn't like swearing. It wasn't his thing. But when I told his story and my other grandfather's story, um, when I was promoted to colonel, I knew he would have said, "Holy shit," and thank you for sharing that story. When someone tells your story in the

48:30 Her Final Meeting With Admirals and Generals

48:30 future, what truth do you hope lives the longest that I was there for people? I everything I possibly could have on behalf of my nation, my family, and the future. For our listeners and our viewers, before we close, I want to take a moment to reflect on your journey. You exemplify a kind of service that does not end when the uniform is removed. even when that removal is forced, contested, or painful. Your story reminds us that leadership is not about comfort. It's about consistency. The courage to stay present through transition, to speak truth when it's risky, and to carry conviction when ease would be easier. You serve this nation not just in war zones or in strategic planning rooms, but by insisting that service itself should be inclusive, clear, and open to anyone willing to commit it with honor. This is the heart of our story on Voice for Valor. It's not just about preserving your memory, but elevating

50:02 purpose. So, Bri, thank you for your service. Thank you, Mike. And thank you for your example. Thanks for having me. Absolutely.