He Quit the Marine Band for Infantry. It Nearly Broke Him

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00:00 First Day in Boot Camp

0:00 what does it take to transform the wounds of war into wings of triumph today on boys for valor we dive deep with mike ergo a man who carried the weight of combat through the streets of fallujah and now carries the names of fallen brothers across iron man finish lines from the disciplined ranks of the marine corps to the grueling miles of endurance racing mike's journey is one of profound loss unexpected redemption and the power of purpose reborn in fallujah he witnessed both the darkest corners of humanity and the brightest examples of brotherhood and when he returned home he faced perhaps his greatest battle yet the one within post-traumatic stress addiction

0:50 survival's guilt these invisible wounds nearly claimed another casualty until mike discovered that sometimes healing comes through pushing your limits rather than escaping them his transformation from combat veteran to iron man competitor isn't just about athletic achievement it's about honoring those who never made it home whether you've worn the uniform lost someone who has or simply understand that our greatest growth often comes through our deepest pain this conversation will remind you of the resilience of the human spirit this is voice for valor i'm your host mike camora and today we march swim and race alongside mike ergo marine athlete and living testament to the

1:43 power of turning trauma into triumph yeah so mike first off thank you so much for for coming on the show uh i'm so honored to have you and it's such a small world how did you meet my sister because she's the one that introduced me to you how did you guys even how did you guys even meet yeah so lauren and my wife were college friends and they went to ups together and uh known each other since yeah freshman year i think so they go back a long time and i got to meet lauren and i just become a friend too so i've known her since i think 2005 now okay is your wife from the pacific northwest or how did she go to the university of puget sound she's she grew she and

2:31 i grew up together and she was looking for something up in the pacific northwest and and just fell in love with the ups campus and and the life there so she went there wrote straight out of high school okay it's it's a nice area especially you know folks from california for or the southwest area they're used to that that hot dry climate and then you go up to the pacific northwest and see all this green and the mountains and it truly is nice but for us folks that are actually from there the the gray gloom gets to us after a while yeah i think it was the same for her uh and it was hilarious the first visit i took leave i actually lied to my command and told him my sister was getting married so i

3:14 could get leave that wasn't part of block leave and i went out to visit her and stayed there for about a week and is this was in february so she goes hey get ready it's just gonna be really gloomy and i got there and it was sunny and beautiful the whole time i was like i don't know what you're talking about what are you talking about february in seattle tacoma area is wonderful yeah well don't tell any don't tell anybody because everybody from california is moving up there jacking up the house prices so that's the way going yeah we're we're uh exporting people to various states to drive up real estate for sure yeah so yeah so you mentioned that you had to

3:52 you were taking leave to go up there and visit her please take us back to childhood and the the

04:00 Why He Left the Marine Band

4:00 moments that you know influenced you early in your life that planted that seed to eventually join the marines yeah yeah you know i grew up um fortunate to have many opportunities for service and a lot of those were through my church that i went to and i i i went on spring breaks with my church to a small village in the border of mexico and california place called mexicali and we we'd help build houses and roofs for people and i got to interact with people and then i i expanded on that in my high school years and started going to south america and even slovakia i went and helped actually build the foundation and footing of a church out there and i realized that it was

4:53 not only important to do but i felt great i felt great serving other people and you know some of the other seeds that were planted in my life were my grandfather not a veteran however he worked with a lot of marines that had served in the pacific theater in world war ii and he would tell me stories about places like iwo jima and and tarawa and these these battles and i try to wrap my head around you know how these men had accomplished these things and put themselves in harm's way for service to the country and and i like that idea and you know um i never thought i i would be able to join the marines i wasn't sure i was stronger enough or good enough or fast enough but you know when the time came um made

5:44 that choice so you you chose the marines because of your grandfather's experience with marines that you were involved with why did you choose to join the marines because you knew you knew you had a great idea but um what was the other side of the story like did you came up with this plan what did you want to do in the marines do what what did you want to do to help you and yeah i think the one thing i think that was a little bit interesting and i'll take a stab at the fact that you know i was i was there um because i was a former marines in the south i was a former marines in the middle east and i first played for the marines i was playing in um the uh the in the in the south so i i was part of the marines and i'm kind of close to that

6:24 about opportunities to be part of the Marine Corps band. And while I, I changed careers eventually within the Corps, um, that was what got me in the door. Cause I said, Oh, service to country and playing music, two things I really love, you know? So I, um, I was, I was burned out in high school too. I was burned out. I was like, I'm, I don't have any focus or direction. I need, I need something to really kick me in the butt and get me going. And so I said, I think this is one way I can do it. If I just commit myself to something as extreme as the Marine Corps, I think it'll give me what I need. I had no idea that you had that musical talent. I went and saw the Marine Corps band in, at the Iwo Jima Memorial with my family. Did you,

7:11 did you happen to perform at that? I did not know. I wouldn't. So I was, my experience with music in the Marine Corps lasted only as far as the school of music. I didn't get stationed or assigned to any, any of the division bands. Or any of the bands out there in the, in the fleet. But I, uh, I decided while I was in there that, um, I just, for me personally, I felt more of a calling to serve in the infantry and I, you know, I, I, I love music and it was a tough choice, but I, I just, for me, I didn't want to have the potential of, of staying stateside while other people have been being put in harm's way. And so I failed myself out of the school and,

8:01 uh, requested a transfer to the infantry and they, they looked at me like, oh, are you sure about this? This is a pretty sweet gig. And I said, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm sure. And they, they said, no problem. And next thing I know, I got a bus ticket from little Creek, Virginia, down to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina to attend the school of infantry. Okay. So most of us have seen full metal jacket. Yeah. What was bootcamp like for you versus watching us, us, you know, non non Marines while watching that movie, which is obviously, like one of my favorites. It's so good. Yeah. Uh, I, I, I can take you back to that day, you know, of October 10th of 2001, nine 11. I just happened, you know, month prior and I, I had just finished

8:50 summer school. I didn't graduate on time. So I had to get a diploma from an alternative school and, um, I show up, you know, they, they take us from the airport, drop us off at, at bootcamp at, at night and a lot of yelling, a lot of moving. Doing fast, a lot of confusion. Now I'm showing up there in civilian clothes. My hair's out to here. You know, it's, it's, I look like a clown and you know, I get in there before I know it, I'm changing over into the Marine Corps green on green sweats. I'm getting issued uniforms and then they're shaving my head and it's moving so fast. I can't even keep up with it in my head spinning. And I just know I'm not good enough. I'm not fast enough. And I'll never forget. I kind of reflection of

9:40 myself in the glass. In the, in, in a window with the light shining out. And I look and looking back at me was this now bald, freshly bald, pale, chubby, 18 year old. And I said, who we got a long way to go before this turns into a Marine.

10:00 Becoming Infantry — The Moment It Stuck

10:01 So what I, what I love about the military is the fact that they break you all down to build you up as one. Yes. Can you share a significant story of your time in bootcamp where they were, where they were breaking you down? Mm-hmm . And you just. Just don't see the end of the light, but you do build back up together as one. Yes. Uh, you know, what sticks out is, and I, I think a lot of the branches have a team week where you go and do a service to a different part of bootcamp. And for me, it was working at the permanent personnel chow hall. And so where everyone goes to eat that, that is, you know, a Marine or active duty. And I'm working behind the scenes. I'm in

10:42 charge of all the recruits there to serve, to clean. Yeah. And, uh, I, people were messing up. I was, so my lunch break, I got taken back to our barracks and, uh, just, just haze the dog piss out of me. And I'm, I'm moving, you know, our squad bay by myself from, you know, the racks from one side of the, the, the squad bay to the other and back. I'm doing pushups. I'm running, I'm doing jumping jacks. I'm doing mountain climbers. I'm just, I'm slipping in my own sweat and the level of. Yeah. Hatred I saw from that drill instructor was so intense. And, uh, and then that was my lunch break. So I go back and, and finish the day of working and I come back and somebody had messed up somewhere

11:33 else at, you know, our platoon was split up into different service groups. And so we were duck walking. So for people unfamiliar where you're on your haunches, kind of in a squat position, taking a step forward. And we'd had our scuzz brush or a big brush that we'd do things with and they would say step and we'd step forward, scrub left, scrub right step. And we did that across the entire squad bay and back, which I'd say is about 40, 50 yards long. Oh my gosh. And I, and I, and I'm so tired. I'm I'm the, I'm the most exhausted I've been in my life. And I walk into this and, and here I am starting all over again with the squad bay. I just been in a few hours ago, getting hazed and, uh, getting exercise and, and we're doing this at the end of

12:28 the night. And I just remember, you know what we're, we're in this together. Like I'm, I'm, I, by myself, I would not have the strength to do this, but I look at the guys on my left and right and realize they're there too, at that same level. And we're all doing it. And so that is the moment where I believe I really transcended from an individual to a team member. I'm like, I'm not giving up on these guys and they're not giving up on me. And like you say that you, they break you down. Yeah. Everyone has a a shaved head. Everyone wears the same clothes and we're no longer white guys, black guys, Hispanic guys. We are light green or dark green, as I said, and so many different people from so

13:14 many different walks of life, trying to accomplish the same mission and work together, despite our differences, realizing that we're being enculturated in a way that brings us all together. You know, now we have a new common language. We have a new common look. We have a new common goal and values. And And I transformed from just an 18 year old chubby kid into a Marine. You've mentioned a few things just in the last five minutes that makes me think about what we're doing in the current administration. Everything right now is warfighter lethality. Everything is seems to come across as very aggressive and violent. I wish people would realize from your service as, um, starting off in church to being in the Marines. We're so much more than just lethality.

14:05 Yeah. We're, we're a level of, we defend this nation in so many different capacities. I tell people like the Navy defends worldwide commerce and ensuring, you know, the shipping lanes are free. Uh, the air force, we ensure, we ensure the, the airways are, are safe for, for our airliners. We're so much more than just this lethality thing. I wish we would come back a little bit more to the middle and talk about how we, we serve so many different levels. What do you think? I agree on that. And, and, you know, some, some areas of the military or that tip of the spear, that lethality and overall though, how I see the military and its function and service is to be a check against aggression,

14:50 to be a check against tyranny. And, and by saying that it's, it's like we have this military to protect and provide structure and to provide safety so that we don't have to go into a war. And I think that gets lost. Yeah. As I know that you were enlisted and I was a senior military officer retiring as a Colonel, but as I moved up the chain and went to all these professional military education schools and experiences, it taught me how to avoid war at all costs, not to look for ways to get involved in conflict. It just became this, what can we do to stay out of this? That's why I'm personally a fan of the state department and USA ID and some of these other organizations,

15:41 they allow political influence without, without the violence. Agreed. And, and I think as a young, younger man in my late teens and early 20s, I, I, I had that urge to go to war. It was, it, it felt like that's what I need to do. And I need, I wanted to be part of something big. And then I think like many people do, once you experience that level of brutality and violence, you do everything in your power to prevent that from happening. Again, we're on a larger scale because once you witness those things, it, you realize just how awful they are during your time of basic training. And you, and then you went off to, uh, to North Carolina to be with your infantry team. You talk about alpha company and some of your other

16:36 interviews. Can you talk about that, that brotherhood that you developed without alpha company before deploying? Sure. Yeah. So I was part of alpha company, first battalion, eighth Marines, or we just call ourselves one eight alpha. I showed up and it was, it was a rude awakening into, I, you know, I, I was used to the, the

17:00 Combat Tours and What Came Back With Him

17:01 hazing and earning my place as a Marine and bootcamp. And then it felt like it started over in school of infantry. And then it started over again in a really difficult way when I showed up to my unit, because we were out having information. And my first Sergeant says, Hey, this is Ergo. He's the new guy. He's from California. And he came from the band. And so, and I've red hair, so I had a lot going against me and I see my, you know, senior enlisted and the NCO is just salivating. We're like, we are going to haze. We are going to murder this kid. Absolutely destroy him. You know, cause I'm, I'm in the Southeast and it's this culture shock. I, I didn't know anything about, you know, hunting. I knew a little bit about fishing. I didn't know

17:50 much about anything about NASCAR and like all these like cultural staples. From where, from where I came from versus where I was, it was such a shock. And I think, um, I, I, uh, I'll tell you this. I really had to earn my place there and keep showing up, keep taking the beatings. And, and eventually I earned that respect of at least the junior enlisted and, and became friends. Hardest fought friendships ever. And some of the most enduring ever too. How do, how do we explain to kids these days, you know, high school kids, I want everybody to serve. Yeah. Whether that's military, church, police, fire, you, you name it. I, I want everybody to find a purpose driven life and service. What, what you're describing gets you out of your comfort

18:46 zone. So looking back at that time, can you, can you look back at that, that 18 year old Mike and say how much you've grown since then, because of these experiences of getting out of your comfort zone. I love speaking about that because I, I had a taste of that going to, to foreign. Foreign cultures as, as a young person before I enlisted. And it was just a glimpse into, okay, this is culture shock. These are other people who live a different way of life and, and I want to learn about them. And when I joined the Marine Corps and, and fell into that life of, of service there to country, I learned that my world had expanded from just focusing on myself to putting

19:38 others before self. And it was. Just an incredible experience of being able to accomplish the near impossible, because I had a team of other people working together. So focused and mission focused and driven that I realized the strength of a group to serve and to do good things is so much more powerful than an individual, you know, yelling out into the, the, the ether and, and trying to make change by themselves. You mentioned it earlier, and I don't mean to get so political, on this. It's just in our current environment right now, you building homes, almost like this, you know, homes for habitats, whatever that, uh, some of that volunteer service is called.

20:28 I've been all over the world as a C-17 pilot. I've been all over the world. And 99% of the people I've met have been just wonderful, kind people. How do we get back to not describing people by their, you know, race, color, or creed, but by their values. I, I mean, I, I think, I think of the, the Hispanic community from Mexico, they're most, most of them are Catholic and they, they, they have those extended families and they care about their, their grandmothers and their grandfathers. How do we get back to recognizing that as a positive rather than, Hey, they're, you know, they're just coming here to take our jobs. How do, how do we fix that? You know, I think it takes the human contact, the humanity looking into another person's eyes

21:15 and being right there with them and seeing them to, to recognize yourself and others. And, and recognize the similarities. Had I not had that good chance, I would have let stereotypes just dictate how I felt about other people. I think the direct experience is so key. And I love organizations like Rotary International, you know, and their exchange student program or exchange students around the world coming to experience a different culture and saying, oh, okay, this is different. It doesn't make it wrong. It doesn't make it bad or something to be feared. it's it's different and once you can see that that's the case but at the end of the day most of us want our families to be safe we want the best for our community and when you can find those

22:09 differences that transcend race culture country of origin then you can start to see oh we have a lot more to work in common with and we don't have to fear just because they speak another language or eat different food or dress differently I was fortunate enough to interview Iwo Jima survivor the 80th anniversary was recently and so a bunch of survivors came back to Washington DC for this conference and this gentleman was sharing his story and he said that when he took this this Japanese man's life on the island similar to the book letters of Iwo Jima the the member had some item on the island and he was able to take it off the island and he was able to take it off the island

22:55 on him and he saw that that he was married and that he had a family and he still to this day thinks about that one individual even though he knew what he was doing was was right and was protecting Americans freedoms he still to this day had tears as nearly a hundred year old man sharing that story and understanding that we are you know we all come from the same thing we just happen to look a little different and have different you know values and and political agendas and um for somebody to share that story 80 years later and still have tears once again as a reminder to me like you said how similar we all are I I believe that entirely and it was it was

23:40 an interesting shift to go from you know uh part-time missionary to Marine Corps infantry right going from trying to save souls to take Souls it was a huge shift and the the process which is I I believe for war fighting capability of dehumanizing the enemy if you have to face situations where you must kill them makes you more effective as a killer however I believe a lot of the things that I learned in the Marine Corps were applicable to wartime and combat and some of us can take that beyond and use it out of context you know for example something simple as eating right you learn to eat in the military within two minutes you know in boot camp really fast just scarf it

24:32 down but that doesn't apply to when you're on a on a nice date with your wife taking someone out you're not going to eat like a pig and so my first few years of marriage my wife was like why do you eat so fast and I was like because it was three minutes for breakfast four minutes for lunch five minutes for dinner yeah just yeah yeah you're right and then you see the context of it and you're like oh perhaps this skill is not a transferable one to you know a civilian or veteran life yeah this isn't an attractive skill to uh to find a mate in life as you wrap your arms around your plate of food and you're just shoveling it in with two hands exactly so you leave you leave um North Carolina and you head

25:18 to Fallujah talk us through that that transition from leaving the West Coast or excuse me the East Coast of the United States to now you're going into the Middle East talk us through that yeah the the one thing that stuck out to me from that transition of leaving was so right before we departed and flew overseas to Iraq I had a few days with my girlfriend now my wife and it was it was pretty serious and I knew I really cared about her but I remember when I dropped her off at the airport to fly home you know go back to school and in Tacoma and and I was heading off to war and not knowing if I'd come back I knew I just had a feeling that this was going to be a tough one and

26:09 I and that absence of of her presence in my life yeah I knew how much I loved her and I knew that I loved her and she was the one for me right then and there and and so I had to carry that with me on that drive home and and shed some tears and then I had to stuff it away pack it in and compartmentalize all feelings and concerns for home or anything other than war fighting capability and now it was time in my mind to make that mental shift to I'm here with my brothers we're here to get a job done we're going to be there for seven months and we're going to see and take whatever they throw at us and that transition was something I'd gotten a little bit used to but now that I have this woman in my life that I wanted to spend the rest of my life

27:00 with it was it was a tough one to to pack that away going to Fallujah you mentioned in one of your previous interviews about you know bullets whizzing between you and your point man in that split second uh-huh what's going through your mind you know that was an occasion where it was the closest combat that I had in the city there we were in the city of Fallujah for a month and not every day was intense but most of them were you know kicking doors open finding people who were ready to shoot us who were a train in a trained position on the door and and trying to get them before they got us and this was day 10 or 11 of that and I'm going on limited sleep limited food um and

28:00 The Ironman Years — Running Toward Pain

28:04 you know we're searching this house for these four guys who were setting up to ambush my platoon and I I had a general sense of where they were and so we tracked them down to this final house of where they could be in in our in our Zone and it's me and three other guys and we searched the house no one's in there we find this one room in the bottom and my point man kicks open the door immediately they start shooting at us and we're pinned against the wall and like you said these bullets are raking moving upwards in between me man as we're shoulder to shoulder um guy behind me gets hit in the helmet i i i'm assuming he's gone and dead and as as i felt the heat i'll never forget this i felt the heat of a bullet go by my

28:54 neck and i just had this moment i was like this is it and this it was such a transformative moment for me right there of in one sense surrender to the moment not surrendering to the enemy but surrendering to the moment and accepting my fate and i remember i didn't call out to god for mercy to save my life i just remember thinking this is it and i'm going down with my boys and the only regret that i had was i'd never see my wife again i'd never see her and the time i could have spent with her and the life we could have made together i was like i won't have that and that was a huge pain and this experience was something i'm still trying to wrap my head around because

29:45 i'm i'm there and as i surrender to this moment and say okay i'm here for whatever comes i'm stops as i understand it and i can feel up until that moment my understanding of my consciousness and who i was was somebody who lived in my head and my brain housing right and my body just followed whatever i commanded it to do but all of a sense i could sense the rest of my body as i was equally present in it almost as if i could see out of different parts of my body because i could sense and i it's taken me mike it's taken me 20 years to try to describe this this experience but i could feel my cells contracting and expanding i could feel the hair growing out of different

30:34 parts of my body and and then this interesting thing happened where who i was as an individual as mike that shifted and it included the guys around me that i was on my team and included the guys that i was shooting and trying to kill who were trying to kill me including the concrete of this house and and it expanded until i felt i was the the the separation between me and others and other things just disappeared and it was this timeless moment which felt like eternity and i just knew everything would be all right however it turned out that everything was okay and so i have this this very spiritual ineffable experience and then it narrows right back down right into

31:33 me and i'm shooting these people who are trying to shoot me and eventually coming out on top and it's uh it's it's something that i know that i i will never be able to understand but what i've taken away from that is that i i think it's cliched to say that you know we're all connected and and it becomes some kind of you know spiritual buzz phrase buzzword but i truly felt it and i had to wrestle my emotions against i have this hatred for these people i'm trying to kill and yet i'm connected to them and in that moment i didn't have that hatred and so trying to to wrestle with that for many years of what does that mean do you think that near-death experience made you a better person eventually it did when i could finally accept that

32:33 it happened here's the thing about that that happens right and then we go off into another gunfight and so there's no time to sit down and process wow what what this just happened we're in another gunfight because it's just going the pace is changing it's just it's going up and down is high the intensity and and yeah it was high tempo operations so we we you know for for years i i i had this preconceived notion of what i believed life was and and how things were and that did not fit that experience did not fit into anything i had previously experienced or believed and so i just kept pushing it back like i know what happened but that can't be true because i

33:20 don't believe that and so i use a lot of alcohol and drugs to to kind of push that back but to get to your point did it make me a better person i think once i finally realized that okay i don't have to understand it but i know what happened it it changed everything for me it changed how i treat people how i view myself how i view others how i view animals and the environment and the world around me with this constant chaos outside the wire when you guys go back to your you know your forward operating base fob or whatever you guys call call the marines are you guys talking about this stuff or are you are are you supporting one another as you deal with these with these

34:08 stressors what what was it like once you got back inside the wire together uh-huh yeah we got back and uh here's one thing that i you know i saw a couple guys from bravo company that that i knew saw my buddy robbie landers from outside of boston and i see him and himself and i and a good friend dave hawk had gone to infantry school together and i was like oh my god it's so good to see you man you know because it had been a month and i hadn't seen this guy and we were you know one block away from each other practically the whole time fighting different fights and you know gave gave him a hug and i said all right where's dave and he's like no he he's gone he didn't hear yeah he got shot in

34:58 the face and so it was that illusion of safety or security or we're done or we're back and we're all together again and we're all together again and we're all together again and we're all together again and we realize that a lot of people didn't come back from that and i think a lot of us because we're still there in country knowing that more things could go on we're expected to maybe go to ramadi afterwards didn't end up happening but we still had another month of deployment left of of operations to conduct and had to stuff that stuff down so we with our eyes we we would look at each other and just give it a knowing nod but it wasn't talked about we didn't bring the stuff

35:38 up because we had to stuff it down to be able to focus on the situation and we had to stuff it down on the mission still. I've never lost a friend in combat. I have no idea what you guys went through. I've lost friends to suicide, but I've never lost a friend in combat. I'm just so sorry that you experienced that. You know, I appreciate that. And, you know, through some of my work that I do now and the ways I've found meaning of that loss has been profound in terms of how it's changed me and how I made a journey from coming home with post-traumatic stress disorder, full-blown addiction and alcoholism to medicate that, to escape the panic and the grief and the

36:42 survivor's guilt, to realizing that maybe I could connect with the families and they would be okay with that, which was... scary. But finding meaning and, you know, the gratitude that I got to serve with these men, I got to be part of their lives and they affected me in positive ways. And I got to share a small window of time with amazing human beings and focusing. Yes, of course the loss hurts, but it hurts because we love and we care. And I had the opportunity and the privilege of and the honor of knowing and serving alongside of some really amazing people. And that's what I... started to focus on, that gratitude. Do you have a relationship with David's family today?

37:35 I do. His mother will text me. She texts me that they're a very strong Christian family and so she'll text me Bible verses almost every day and I'll check in with her. I recently visited, well, last summer, I visited Arlington and saw Dave's grave for the first time and just broke down. It was... because I didn't know I was still carrying around that much grief. Because it'll hit me in waves where I think, okay, I've grieved, I'm done, but then it'll show up again and that's okay. But yeah, I talked to her. I talked to my best friend Todd Godwin's family. I lost him on that deployment. I mean, we came home 21 fewer from my unit. And I've tried my best to keep in contact with most of the families, with all of them who wanted to be in

38:32 contact, you know, especially my good friend Kathleen Fairchild. The mother of Brad who was in my platoon who was killed in action there while we were there and, you know, I get to talk to her maybe, you know, from every week to every month and saw her last summer with a bunch of us that had a reunion. So it, you know, you know what was crazy was I was going through life thinking that they were mad at me for surviving while their sons didn't come back. And I had this fear that, oh, they think I'm a piece of crap, you know, like why did their son get killed? And they had a, I believe they had a resentment towards me. And so I stayed away. I was, I was afraid, ashamed, guilty, feeling sad.

39:15 And one Memorial Day I was given a speech alongside a Gold Star mother and she took me aside. And I didn't know her, her, her son, Jonathan Yelner Vega was an Air Force member and he was killed in action in Iraq. And, and she took me aside and she said, I am so glad you're home. I'm so glad you're safe and you're going to do great things with your life. And I just want you to know that I'm glad you're home. And that just, it, it broke open this big hardness in my heart and realized that, wow, maybe people are okay with me being home. This was this unchecked thought I had that, you know, I shouldn't have survived. How dare I survive? And, and it gave me the, the permission in my mind to contact these families again and, and let them know that I, I thought about their sons.

40:11 And I think about them almost every day and I, you know, I carry their names with me when I race and, and all these different things. And they were so happy to hear that. They were so happy to hear from me and we connected, you know, it's like our griefs were siloed. They had theirs, I had mine, the guys I served with had theirs. And yet we're all just kind of suffering by ourselves. And when we started connecting, a lot of healing started happening. A lot of growth started happening. Mike, I think this is why so many of us in the military can relate to one another. One of my best friends growing up, he went to the Air Force Academy, star football player, wanted to be a pilot.

40:52 Ended up being colorblind. So, he went down the special operations community, did a lot of crazy stuff in that world. Ended up getting a traumatic brain injury and was released from the military as a young captain and we, we kind of separated for a while there. And I felt like it was because the jealousy of, I was a pilot, he didn't get to be a pilot. He was medically retired as a young captain. And then, And one day he called me and said, you know, I have lung cancer and it's a terminal illness. And he was saying, you know, I'm so sorry that I didn't reach out and talk to you more because, yes, I was jealous that you had the opportunity to live out this dream that I always wanted.

41:49 And I felt so guilty about it. When I went to his funeral at Arlington, his dad came up to me and put his hand on my shoulder and he just started crying.

42:00 Grandfather's Stories and the Weight of a Bronze Star

42:02 And he said, he said, Mike, that colonel rank looks so good on you. I'm so proud that you're still in and you serve to this point. And I just broke down because I felt so guilty that his son, I would have never even considered the military if it wasn't for my friend that went to the Air Force Academy. His dad was a JAG officer in the Army. I would have never even considered the military. So this family was kind of what influenced me to even consider thinking about it. And I just felt. So, so guilty. I know it's not losing somebody in combat, but it was still losing somebody that had a significant influence on my, on my military career. And that's why I have so much appreciation for you.

42:49 And there's so many out there that don't understand how we can have this community, even though we didn't serve together. We were in totally different services. Yet we understand these bonds that, that surpass generations. I agree with you. And, you know, circling back to what you said earlier about, about young people getting the opportunity, not being forced, but getting the opportunity and benefiting from any kind of public service, you know, whether that be stateside or, or overseas in the military or in the Peace Corps or working in their communities, that service, you create bonds and friendships that will transcend anything. And even, and even like we didn't serve together, like you said,

43:33 but I get where you're coming from. You get where I'm coming from because we have that commonality. And, and you, you, I'll, I'll speak with another veteran and we have that instant level of commonality that I would not have had it just as an individual growing up pursuing my own interests without any kind of life of service. And so for that, I'm really grateful. And I think people who don't have the privilege to serve or don't have that experience, they, they miss out. And I don't want people to miss out on that. So how do we, how do we convince the next generation that, yeah, we're, we're telling sad stories. There's, there's traumatic experiences in our life, but I personally, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

44:16 It's the best thing that ever happened to me. I, I have lost friends, like I said, to suicide. I haven't lost a friend to combat, but I would still not trade anything. It is the best experience that I could have ever wished upon my life looking back. I, I agree. And, and I think it might be similar to our conversation earlier about how do we expose people to, to different cultures and help them understand that they are not necessarily the other that we have so much more in common is maybe giving people a small taste of what it's like to even work in a soup kitchen for a day or, you know, clean up a local park for a morning or something like that to where you find, you get a little taste of that.

45:03 Right. And once you, once you feel those intangible, you know, have those intangible experiences, then you're like, oh, maybe, maybe there's something to this. Maybe there's. something to this. And so it's maybe it's creating more opportunities and, and not seeing services so much as a punishment, but an opportunity to, to, to feel fulfilled, to feel great and to do something great and be proud of it too. Speaking of feeling great, this is a perfect segue into what I find amazing for you is going to these, these triathlons. How did you transition into this iron man? I mean, my goodness, tell people what, what the iron man is. First off. Sure. So the iron man is a race that began in Hawaii.

45:54 There's, there's many of them now worldwide and, and the full iron man is a 140.6 mile race. And so you start out doing a 2.4 mile swim and you quickly transition to riding a bike for 112 miles, and then you transition into your running gear and you run a marathon. So 26.2 miles, and this is done without breaks. I mean, your breaks are changing your clothes for the next segment of the race. And. It's a, it's an intense thing and, you know, I had a few bright moments along my journey that, that got me to even consider the possibility that this was something a human could do, let alone something I could do. And, you know, it, the gist is this, I was, I was new, I, I, I just stopped drinking and using drugs.

46:49 It wasn't working, my, my marriage was failing and my health and my life was failing. And so now I, I. I was working out, I was trying to fill that void. You know, I had a lot of time because I wasn't drunk and high all the time. So I had a lot of time to do things and, and feeling feelings was difficult. And so movement was crucial for me. And I had this friend that I, my, my good friend, Chris, that I've known since middle school for my birthday, my 30th birthday, he got me a registration for a half marathon and I wasn't running at all. I, I hadn't run a half marathon before. And frankly, I was, I was pretty pissed. He got me that because I was like, this is a present.

47:31 I have to work out for and do something I don't want to do. I mean, this is a crap present. This sucks. And, you know, but, but my ego is harnessed in a way where I wasn't going to back out. And I just remember training and one day I was going around a certain neighborhood. I just remember rounding this, this, this corner and this block in the suburbs. And I was like, oh, I, I feel good. I'm not chemically altered. I'm not having a drink and I can be here right now. I can be here right now. And this is right. This is good. And I hadn't felt safe and inside my own body. But what by that, I mean, I wasn't having a panic attack. I wasn't having a lot of grief.

48:13 I wasn't having this feeling of impending doom that comes with post-traumatic stress disorder, but I felt good. I was like, I can be here. I don't have to get out of the situation. And, and so I ran the half marathon. I loved it. I signed up for more. I had a Vietnam vet challenged me to do a swim from Alcatraz and Island, you know, where the prison is in San Francisco Bay to San Francisco. That's about a mile and a quarter swim. I thought it was stupid. I was scared of it, but he was great. He got me. He said, well, I was thinking of taking a group of veterans to do this, but I, you know, I kind of respect how, you know, you're not still so caught up in the, the, the Marine Corps mindset mindset of being an amphibious Warrior.

48:53 And like, you have to go out and do all these things and, you know, so maybe it's not for you. And, and he got me because he just said that I was like, well, now I got ahead. Now I got to do it. I'm being called out right here in the, in the most trickiest skillful way. I'll never forget this. And so I did it and I loved it. I loved open water swimming. And then I was in Hawaii on a vacation that coincidence, divine providence, whatever we want to say. It was the same week that the Ironman World Championships in Hawaii was happening and I was there for it. And I watched these men and women run bike and swim all over the island. And at first I got mad. Well, first let's, let's back up.

49:36 I was afraid. I had this fear of like, why would someone do this? You're paying money. To suffer for, you know, eight to 17 hours. This is, and then I got mad. I'm like, why are you doing this? And then I realized that it was another little beacon. So it was the type of fear of not you're about to die fear, not a bear is chasing your fear, but there's something your heart desires that you're afraid to pursue that kind of fear. And for whatever reason, I was like, I think I need to do one of these. And my wife saw it in my eyes. She's like, oh, you're having your, I know what this means. You, are you going to do one of these things? I'm like, I don't know.

50:14 She's like, yeah, I, I already know she knew. And so I signed up for half iron man, which is half the distance, you know, one mile swim, 56 mile bike, 30 mile run. And I was watching this video, the, you know, iron manual send emails and clips of inspiring people. And they had this woman named Lisa Hallett and she was, she ran that race that year to honor her husband. Who's who's killed overseas, her husband, John Hallett. And he was in the army. He was, he was killed in action and she ran to deal with the grief and to honor his memory. And then I just had this water where it started coming down my face. And I said, this is it. This is where I can honor my friends.

50:58 I can do something. That's good for me that I want to do and honor these people. And so I immediately design and organize and, and ordered this Jersey that had all the names of the fallen from my deployment, where we lost 21 to eight more who had died either by suicide or subsequent deployments or complications from coming back. And so I had 29 names of my Jersey. And I was like, I'm going to run to honor these guys and I'm going to contact their families and let them know that they haven't been forgotten. And, and once I connected to that purpose where I saw and I was getting feedback that, oh my God, thank you so much for remembering him. And I saw that it meant something to them and they were happy about that.

51:41 I was unstoppable, not because of my power, but because I knew that I could do something to help other people. I was like, nothing, nothing. Nothing. Nothing's going to stop me. Not any roadblock or anything is going to prevent me from running these races and, and sharing the stories of these guys along the course, you know, with people who are running, you know, because eventually I incorporated carrying a flag with it to honor a local gold star family. And people were like, what's your deal, man? You're carrying a flag on a marathon. What's, what's wrong with you? And I'd say, well, actually it's, it's, you know, I'm carrying this for my best friend, Todd Godwin, who was killed in action.

52:23 And I had a streamer with his name and, you know, I'd tell him about this, these amazing guys I served with and what their story was. And, you know, how I named my son after my best friend, Todd, and continue his namesake and continue his memory. And so people were inspired by that. And, and I realized it's this virtuous cycle. You start, you feel inspired. And so you do something that will inspire other people. And they feel inspired to do things. To help other people. And it's just this contagious wave of positivity. And I love seeing it. I loved it. And so once you, once you experience the, the, the atmosphere of a, of an endurance race or an iron man, it's a, it's this, just, it's just this hub of positivity and encouragement and excitement.

53:20 And I was, and I was like, I'm, I'm hooked. I'm hooked. When we were chatting a couple months ago, I told you how I went to University of Hawaii. And I've been, I've been to Hawaii. I've been to the Ironman. And so we would get up early in the morning and watch these folks jump in the water. You know, swim their, their two miles out to the big buoy and back. And then we watched the transition to the bike. And then we would go back to our dorm rooms and, and hang out and watch it on TV, waiting for the next transition from the bike to the run. Yeah. And then finally finishing off, hanging out there at the finish line. And it was neat to see the really fast folks, you know, win the race and all that.

53:58 But that's not where the inspiration came from. The inspiration came from staying till midnight and seeing the real, the real heroes crossed in the finish line. Like I told you, the gentleman that, that, um, swam with his son in the boat behind him. And then he would put his son in the, uh, the extension to his bike. And then he would, he would run with his son in the, in the jogging stroller. That was, that was the most inspirational moment of that entire Ironman for me was to watch him with his son. And I, I know that you know who I'm referring to, cause he's done multiple races, but that was, that was the first race that I saw. And, uh, and I know that Ironman has done specials on, on him and his son.

54:43 And I just, it's so inspirational. So I wish I would have been there to see you running with the flag because you're changing lives by doing that. You know, it's, uh, I was, I was shy of being in the spotlight at first because while I've enjoyed participating and, and doing good things.

55:00 What He'd Tell the 18-Year-Old in the Mirror

55:02 I grew up being uncomfortable with being recognized for it. And eventually I had someone just tell me, just get over yourself, just go do the thing and then talk about it. And the attention's there because they want to hear the story and you're, you'll change people's lives and help them. And I was like, okay, I can buy into that. And so it's, it's, it's been really fun to do. And I do everything not to, you know, self deprecate or, or, or talk bad about myself, but, uh, we're, but also not promote like, Hey, look at this thing I'm doing. I want people to find inspiration in the story of recovery and transition and apply that to their own life. And so once I've been able to speak from that motivation and platform, it's been so much fun to see people happy,

55:55 to see people cry tears of joy, um, knowing that, you know, we're recognizing fallen heroes and to see people know that, you know, I've talked to some people who, who let me know that they were struggling and that my, My story helped them to face hard challenges in their life and overcome things. I'm so honored that I get to be a small part of that story of change for the positive. And so it's been a lot of fun. You know, it's funny because I used to think of service as just duty and service as something you don't really want to do, but you do it because it's the right thing and it's a good thing. And then I discovered if you can connect service with something you're passionate about

56:42 and you love doing, that's the ultimate superpower. You know, it doesn't have to be just picking up cigarette butts in the quad, like I did all my years in the Marine Corps, doing that kind of stuff that needs to be done but sucks to do. It can also be fun stuff. It can be really rewarding and fun. And you're helping people. I mean, there's nothing better than that. I consider myself an introvert, but the military has gotten me out of my comfort zone. And it has taught me to realize, reach out to anybody and everybody to, one, tell the story of service, and two, just to get to know all these fascinating people. I'm so thankful for that skill set that they taught me because I would not have done it otherwise.

57:32 But as we come to a close here, I wanted to ask you, of those 29 men that are on your uniform, what do you think they would say to you today? I think I've thought about this a lot. I've thought about this a lot. I think two things. They'd say, one, they'd say that they're proud of me for living my life and not letting just the battle space define me, not being stuck, and finding happiness through creating a family, through finding a career where I can help people and having good experiences that they couldn't have. And I think the Marine in there would also come out and be like, hey, man, how come you haven't won any of these races yet? Why are you so slow, brother?

58:32 That's hilarious. So I always ask one question before I wrap it up with folks. What is the one thing that I have not asked that you think is important for others to hear? I think that there's a lot of room, and I've fallen into it. There's a lot of room after coming back from a high-tempo career or experience in the military to fall into self-pity. I fell into that for a little while, feeling sorry for myself. Woe is me. I went through this hard thing. And now my life is difficult, and I lost my friends, and now I'm sad. And yes, there are very serious experiences, but the self-pity component is destruction. It leads to bad things, and it leads to being stuck in the mud in life.

59:26 And I think that one thing that I want to make clear to everybody is that I'm very proud of my service. I'm very proud of my accomplishments as a Marine, and I'm very proud of the opportunity to serve with other people. And like you, I wouldn't change that for anything despite how hard it was, and despite the consequences and the devastation it wrecked upon a country and the lives of my friends and their families, and that I'm not a victim in this story. I'm not a victim. I'm someone who chose this not fully knowing what I was getting into, as, really, an 18-year-old can't, but I'm someone who benefited from this despite all the loss and hardship. Well said, Mike. I really appreciate that.

1:00:21 much for meeting with me i know that we're going back and forth on this and uh but i'm really thankful for your time today and i look forward to future conversations i appreciate it brother thank you for having me on absolutely