I Realized Killing Was Not My Purpose

Full transcript

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00:00 Amanda's Journey from Teen Recruit to Colonel

0:00 Hey there, Voice for Valor listeners. Mike here with an episode I'm really excited to share with you today. I recently sat down with Amanda, and let me tell you, her story is something special. She joined the Air Force at just 17 years old and worked her way up to becoming a colonel in the United States Air Force. Talk about determination. Amanda takes us through her journey of leading teams all over the world. She doesn't sugarcoat the tough parts of military life, but she also shares the moments that made it all worthwhile. What really stood out was how she talked about making her units feel like family, something I know many of us veterans can relate to.

0:44 One thing that makes Amanda's leadership style unique is how she brings compassion into everything she does. In a world where military leaders are often expected to be tough all the time, she found a way to be both strong. We also got personal in this episode. Amanda opens up about her experience with adoption and how that shaped her as a person. She talks about why it's so important for leaders to show their human side and be vulnerable sometimes. Something that didn't always come easy in military culture. And wait until you hear about her plans for the future. She's working on starting a nonprofit that has a really unique approach to supporting veterans and folks working at the Pentagon.

1:33 Her vision for continuing to serve, even after taking off the uniform, is truly inspiring. This conversation with Amanda is all about resilience, finding your leadership style, and staying committed to serving others, whether you're in uniform or civilian clothes. So grab your coffee, settle in, and join me for this conversation with an incredible leader who started as a teenage recruit and never stopped pushing herself to make a difference. Let's get in. Let's get into it.

02:10 Navigating Pilot Training and Reserve Life

2:10 Yeah, so the way pilot training works is I was 28 years old, and the age waiver, I had just switched to 30. Yeah, because I used to be 27. Yep, so the way active duty works is they typically want to test you to see how bad you actually want to go to pilot training. So if I would have been, if I would have applied on the active duty side, they typically don't select you that first year. And so the chances are I would have ended up being in the waiver pile. And once you're in the waiver. You're never going to get selected. It's because they will always find enough people through the non waiver pile to even open up that that waiver pile. Yeah, so that's so that's why I elected to go to the reserves.

2:54 And then initially I wanted to fly F-16s out of Buckley Air Force Base. So I was chatting with those guys. I had a friend that was there, and I always thought that F-16s were for me. And then I met a C-17 guy and he explained to me the differences of style and he says, hey, do you want to live in a tight suit? Do you want to live in a tent and get 350 a day and, you know, be gone from your family for six months, or do you want to do TV trips, fly all over the world, see every continent, and be with a crew, have hot meals, have a bathroom? I was like, okay, you're right. You've convinced me. So that's, that's where, that's when I started rushing, if you will.

3:33 It's kind of like, it is kind of like a fraternity. I mean, you, you have to go there and meet people and you have to sell yourself, sell yourself to say, hey. That's one thing about active duty, right, is that people just show up and they're in, they're in your, your squadron, like you have to figure out a way to, to make that work. So you get a lot of different personalities. Whereas in the Guard and Reserve, you know, you can, you can pick and choose who's going to be part of your team. And because, you know, it's going to be, this is going to be a 20 year relationship. This is not just going to be a three or four year assignment. Yeah. So how long were you in the Reserves for?

4:09 I was in the Reserves for five years. And then I. And then I transferred to the Guard in 2010. At Charlotte? No, I went and flew RPAs down in Las Vegas. So because that way I could get a full time AGR position because family, kids, as a traditional Reservist, you know, you're always on orders, so you're always gone. My last year in the Reserves, I spent 270 days away from home. So whether that was flying missions or going to SOS or volunteering for something, because you had to be on orders to continue to, to get paid.

04:40 Bureaucratic Nightmares and IG Complaints

4:42 And family, like TRICARE, which is tough when you go part time. So, yeah, so I was gone 270 days that last year. And then when I went to the Guard, I flew RPAs down in Las Vegas for five years. So I'm in the Nevada Guard. And then I interviewed to be General Tahirie's exec. That's right. And that's where I met you. I feel like we met when you were like A1, like, I don't know if you were A1, it's like you'd been as exec and then you were A1 working like pilot bonuses. Yeah, so we had more interaction. I don't know if you were in the three, but. I was financed, so. We had more interaction once I worked. We double paid, we double paid everybody. That was the problem.

5:18 That's how I met you. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. All the pilot bonuses got paid twice. And we had to create that. And then we had another fiasco when I was the group commander. Yeah. We had all these guys that I told them, I said, you are not eligible for this $10,000 bonus because you're still under the initial pilot training commitment of 10 years. They were like, no, no, it says right here, if you're a Guard or Reservist, you know, and you're an aviator, you get this $10,000 bonus. Yeah. And I said, I'm telling you right now, you are under a prior commitment. You probably don't remember when you first came into the Guard or you first went to pilot training, but you signed a commitment for 10 years.

5:52 We had like seven guys that still took the bonus. And so. How did we pay them? Like, how did that mistake get made? I mean, we don't need to dig into the issues with all of our manual finance type stuff. Yeah. I don't know who to put the blame on, you know, the bureaucratic process people slip through the cracks. But it was frustrating for me when I already told those guys. So I was the OSS commander at the time when I told them, and then I left and went to Eisenhower and then came back as a group commander. And as I come back as a group commander, here I am working with NGB about. And they had debts. Yeah. And then they were complaining and you're like, I'm not fighting for you.

6:26 Now I'm responding to Congressionals that they've submitted saying, oh, you know, woe is me, nobody told me. Or I was like, no, no, no, no, no. You're like, I told you. I know for a fact that I told you. That does suck. So that was frustrating. Well, then. And then all it takes is one guy that's pissed off at you because you're the. The person that stopped them, you know what I mean? Like all it takes is one to be able to taint the water from like the culture of the organization. Yes. So then I had an IG complaint against me, against the wing commander, anybody in the chain of command that had response to the, um, to the congressional, we all had IG complaints against us.

7:01 And so it was just, I would come home and talk to my wife Heather. And I, and I just said, I'm a good person. I didn't take the money. I didn't do anything wrong. And you're just being an honest broker, but now you could potentially end my career.

07:10 From Rejection to a New Mission at George Mason

7:13 Because you're using the inspector general as a, as a weapon rather than an actual legitimate tool. So it was really, it was frustrating. So, but. But it gets you here and look at this. And now you get to do voice of valor. So is this going to be your full-time gig when you retire? No. So fortunately, um, I was like, you're on terminal leave, right? You're like, I'm on terminal leave. And I interviewed, I really wanted the, uh, the national guard association, vice president of government affairs. I studied. I did. I did all my research on the guard. Did it not go well? Oh, you're saying you were saying it like, oh, I studied, you know, the answer yet. I did all the things, uh, I was very prepared for the, for the interview.

7:56 Um, and then we had the second final interview and I, I thought this is for me because I care so much about the guard. I'm always giving back. I'm always trying to find ways to, you know, to improve recruiting retention, the institution itself. And they told me we're looking for somebody with more legislative experience. It's like, ah, you know, thank you, sir. I really appreciate the feedback, you know, I'll keep working on it. And then they mentioned that the person who they, um, who they selected. And so I reached out to them on LinkedIn. I was like, dude, go out there and the guard needs as much help as they possibly can. So I reached out to, so now you're interviewing me.

8:33 I got it. So I reach out to all of my, uh, mentors and folks that put their, put their name on my reference list. Just saying, thank you so much. It didn't work out, but you know, me, I'm a resilient guy, something, something will land. So. Once again, I was just, like I said, reaching out to all my mentors and I reached out to general Sassaville and he was like, don't worry, Mike, you know, something always comes along. It'll be fine. Thanks, sir. You know, appreciate it so much. He calls me the next day and says, I'm really glad you didn't get that job because I want you to come work for me.

09:00 The Catalyst for Adoption: Medical Challenges

9:03 Nice. So I start on Tuesday. What? And where's he at? I was like, I know I saw it on LinkedIn. You got hired somewhere. So George Mason university working, it's called the rapid, um, prototype research center. And it's like, it's rapid. It's rapid. Right down the street. So three miles down the road, two offices. So our main office is at George Mason, George Mason. And then our skiff is over near Fort Belvoir. And you'll be starting before you even hit your, like, you'll get paid. I mean, you'll double dip for about a month. That's nice. And it literally works out. Like, I can't even tell you. They work with R and E they work with a and S they work with D I U they work with DARPA.

9:44 They work with all the agencies that I've been working for and with over. The last two years in, in, in legislative affairs. So I'm like, I can't even believe this. Everything happens for a reason. Um, I know it sounds so cliche, but I have so many life experiences. I mean, you know, we'll get to it, my adoptions and stuff, but like the way all that stuff worked out with our kids and our situations and where we were at, like, God's got a plan. I mean, I'm a believer. So we, we truly believe that we, we truly believe that. And so, you know, my wife tolerated my woes, me speech for a couple hours. And then she said, you know, it's going to be fine. I was like, I know, I know it's going to be fine.

10:21 And here we are, I get to work for an amazing person that I have tremendous respect for that I've known for years. Um, so yeah, it, it, it all works out. So you mentioned adoption. So I guess, I guess I'll start with the adoption question since, uh, since you brought that up first. So let me see where, so you've experienced military service from multiple angles as an enlisted member, as an officer and as a military. Yeah. Spouse, how has seeing these different perspectives shaped your leadership style and your understanding of military families needs?

11:00 The Emotional Journey of Adopting a Son

11:01 Well, I'll start with my enlisted time. So as an airman basic, right. Getting to my first base in Grand Forks, North Dakota. Um, I saw, I was single, obviously 18 living in the dorms and I babysat for like a few of my NCOs kids. And, and just kind of saw that family atmosphere, which is very big in an organization. That's up North. So when you're in Grand Forks, you're not out doing stuff at the beach. You're not having fun in certain ways. You're kind of like huddled together in a small base at a small town. So I definitely saw that family atmosphere and knew that that's something that I wanted, even as a young airman who hadn't, you know, yet thought about marriage or kids.

11:41 Um, how from a military, I'd say spouse perspective or officer perspective, obviously, as I got older and I became an officer and fell in love and grew up in the military and got married and what's interesting is you say military spouse. So imagine yourself as a squadron commander, a female squadron commander, whose husband is also an officer working at, like I was at the 15th wing in Hawaii. And my husband was at Paycom, um, Pacific. Well, now it's Indo Paycom, but he was at the, uh, combatant command and we had three kids and, you know, we, we showed up there and one of my flight commanders said he, she almost rolled her eyes when she knew that, that the squadron commander was coming in

12:22 with a four, six. Yeah. Seven year old to Hawaii. She was kind of like, oh my gosh, you know, like this is going to be great in, in sarcasm, right? Like we don't want, we almost are afraid of somebody that's coming in with kids and an active duty spouse, who's going to watch her kids. There's going to be all kinds of things. And that can't, that doesn't have to be the case, right? Integrating your family into your organization, into your squadron helped everybody else integrate their families into it. Right. I didn't have a key spouse because my husband was working in the military. So my superintendent spouse was very involved. And if I brought my kids into the squadron, other people felt it was safe to do that.

12:59 And all of a sudden you kind of created a better family atmosphere within your unit.

13:00 Leading with Love and Vulnerability

13:03 So having seen that as a young airman, and then, you know, 15, 20 years later doing that as a squadron commander myself, I think that family is very important. And then having switched over to the guard later in my career, it's even more so, I mean, like when you're in a guard community, I was a group commander in Connecticut, you know, all of those families, they don't really live on base housing. They don't, their kids don't go to CDCs because those don't exist at standalone guard bases. Right. If you're not on an active duty installation. And so having those family picnics and letting those people that just lived out in the community, come in and see what you do, you know, at the 103rd airlift wing, we were C-130 wing and we did

13:45 airlift and the kids saw Santa, you know, on the C-130 at Christmas and we had summertime picnics. I mean, all. That stuff, integrating that family is a key, a key part of, I think, any branch that you serve or component that you serve, right? If you're a reservist, a guardsman or full-time, seeing your family be part of your work is only going to drive your kids to want to serve later on in life and know that mom and dad are doing something of purpose. I feel like what you're describing is vulnerability, transparency, the human aspect of your leadership. I have worked for multiple leaders. And I imagine you as well. You never met their spouse. You never met their kids.

14:28 You don't know anything about their family. I had a, I had a leader that never even asked if I had children. So didn't know if I was married, didn't know what my kids names were. And I'm supposed to work for you in a capacity where we could lose people, right? It is a dangerous mission. We could lose people and you don't even know the next of kin of the folks that. That represent you. You mentioned that when you were 18 years old, where, where did you move from before that first

15:00 High School Reunions and Past Shame

15:05 enlistment? Where were you coming from? I came from California. That's where I grew up. So I actually joined at 17. So I turned 18 in basic training, but I came right out of high school. So that was a huge cultural shift to go to Grand Forks. Everything was cultural shock because you have to understand at 17, I was like a cheerleader in high school. I, my dad had flown to Vietnam, but had been out of the military for 30, 40 years. So that wasn't really part of my community. And. Showing up to Vietnam. Basic training. I mean, I seriously, this is going to make me sound like a dumb, a dumb, whatever. But I thought that OC, not OCPs, but BDUs at the time, I thought that was like an outfit for basic

15:39 training. Like I always saw my recruiter in blue. So I was like, oh, like this is just like a, this camo is only for basic training. I mean, I showed up at North Dakota thinking like, you know, it just, I had no clue what I was getting myself into at all. So, so yes, California girl. And then all of a sudden stationed in North Dakota where it's freezing and being part of a military family. And that was a huge adjustment for me. Yeah. The person I interviewed yesterday, we were stationed together in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and I was joking with around with him. And I said, we were in such a desolate area that embracing the suck. It's a real thing. You get so tight that community gets your family.

16:17 So as you're, you know, like you mentioned babysitting those kids, there's nothing else to do there except get to know your, your, your fellow neighbors, your fellow airmen and, and how you're, you're working together. So coming from California, where in California did you come from? Salinas, Monterey area, about two hours south of San Francisco. Okay. And then what, what drove you to service? What, what you said you did the cheerleader thing. So my senior year, uh, my parents didn't have a lot of money for college and I kind of thought I had this like little savings account and they were like, yeah, there's just like $350 in it. I'm like, what? That's not going to get me anywhere.

16:54 I mean, it was 1994, but, um, I just started talking to a recruiter. I actually had a job. I had a Navy recruiter come to the house first and just because I knew there'd be money for college.

17:00 The RPA Mission and the Shift to Saving Lives

17:03 I knew I could do something like learn a trade. I kind of wanted to do medical. I didn't end up doing that, but, um, not medical. I mean, I did finance, but I just, for some reason, I think I got scared of like how I was going to pay for college. And then somehow I just started talking to recruiters and it was such a, so weird. Cause most of my friends were like, what are you doing? Like this, there, a lot of people didn't go into the military where I came from. Mm-hmm. We came from a. Very affluent area. Whereas we were like the bottom of that lower, you know, middle-class, but a lot of people had money. A lot of my friends were going to get their parents to pay for them to go to college for four years.

17:38 And I was starting to get scared. Um, so it was really to reach out to recruiters, end up talking to an air force recruiter because of my mom. My mom's friend was like, I heard the air force is better for women. Um, so I did, that's who I linked up with and, you know, went to maps and all that stuff. But yeah, I mean, people in, you know, all the football players and all that. They were like jokingly making, making fun of me. Cause like, can you even do a pushup? I'm like, I don't know. I don't think I could have, I mean, I don't think I did. And I really didn't know what to expect at basic training. And it was quite a rude awakening. Yeah, but I made it.

18:13 Obviously it's been 30 years, almost 30. That is so impressive. So where, what, when you were in grand Forks, what clicked in your mind and you thought, you know, one day when I have a family or when I get married, I'm going to adopt children. Because that is. Such an unbelievably selfless act that not a lot of people do. My, my sister adopted a little boy, but what, what was the driving force? So for us, it was, it was actually medical. So I found out when I was a Lieutenant stationed in Germany that I had stage four endometriosis. It's like a, you know, disease in your, whatever, on your uterus and ovaries. And so I had been told as a single or second Lieutenant that I would probably not have kids and I ended up having some medical procedures, like an.

19:00 Breaking Barriers for Women and Support Personnel

19:06 An ovary removed and a tube removed all that. And when I met my husband, I said, you know, we were dating. I was kind of, at some point, obviously you have to have that conversation, right? Like I'm not gonna be able to have kids. And he, the first thing he said, and I don't think we were in dating. I mean, we were just like friends, but I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna be able to have kids. He's like, sweet. We'll just adopt. Like that was his response. And I'm thinking like, I don't even, I don't even know you like that yet, but because he had that heart of knowing that cause some people just want to have biological kids and that's great. But if things don't always work out.

19:36 To where you can, you know, don't just live your life without kids, get some other kids, get some kids. There's so many kids. There are domestic adoptions, international adoptions, foster care, foster adoptions, all that. So we did some foster care training when we were first married and, um, at Herbert field, Florida, but that was a little difficult because they kind of discriminated against a dual military family. Like we are not the first choice to be putting a foster child with, right. Cause you could both be deployed. And this was like, you know, it's like. 2004, like kind of right after September 11th. So, uh, foster care was going to be a little more difficult.

20:12 So around 2006, we went the private adoption way and just had a birth mother, a teenage birth mother pick us for our first, for our first adoption. Wow. And where, where did you adopt her out of? So our first son was adopted and we were stationed at Travis, went through a North California adoption agency and get this. Our son was born. In the same town that my husband. Is from in Pennsylvania, all gone because we were going through California, but at that time the internet was still kind of, it was 2006. So there there's the internet, but it was like, it wasn't like the way it is today. So the adoption agencies kind of work with Google and worked with families all over the United States.

20:57 And she picked us as an eight and a half month old, eight and a half month pregnant teenager.

21:00 The Gap Between Pentagon Policy and Unit Reality

21:02 So my son, my first son was born in the same hospital that his cousins, all of his cousins on the Pennsylvania sign side, we'll talk about a God thing. I mean, like, so that was pretty cool. So when we actually went to Pennsylvania to pick him up and you know, my mother-in-law was actually at the hospital before we were and got to meet our son before, because he, the birth mom just wanted him to go to the nursery. She didn't want to hold, which we appreciated and it sounds bad, but you're kind of like, that's good. Don't connect, don't attach to him if you know, she didn't want to attach to him. And so she went and then we showed up, you know, a day later by the time we got there, my sister was a teenage mother and she was going through all the.

21:42 Adoption process, signing all the paperwork, going through all the stuff, interviewing the family. And at the very end, she asked if she could hold the baby and once she held Christina, she couldn't do it. So my niece, Christina is her daughter and she just couldn't do it. So it was just a family support. You know, my mother helped take care of Christina and I, and I have such fond memories of this little. This little kiddo running around the house and uncle Michael, and she was just such a, such a cutie and sweetheart. Uh, but yeah, I mean, so I understand why she didn't want to hold your son because of that maternal bond. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, her situation was a little different and other things, but, but we're glad that, you know, cause you have to sit there in Pennsylvania for like 10 days.

22:39 She could change her mind till the 10th day. So you're sitting there with your lawyer on the 10th day. Cause we were stationed at Travis. In California. So we had to fly back, but we had to sit there. And I just remember that 10th day she came over, the social worker came over and it's like, it's that whole, like, are you sure you want to give your baby up? And I'm thinking like, you know, cause you're nervous. I mean, as an adoptive parent, there are failed adoptions like that. Right. They get pulled. And then you just kind of, you just stay in the system and you get matched with another baby a few months later, but it's still a loss. It's still lost. Right.

23:09 But so yeah, a long 10 days. So I'm going to brag on you. You were just such a. Kind and caring and humble person. Can you point to a particular experience in your life where that flip switched and you became that person or have you always been this way? Oh, I'm sure I'm a jerk sometimes. I mean, like I grew up with, there was four sisters, so I have, oops, I have five sisters, so, or four sisters. So there's five girls and a brother. So a lot of kids and I'm sure it was never always the perfect daughter. And I'm sure I've been a jerk to people, but I think I believe in the golden. Root. Rule, right. And the treat others the way you want to be treated. And I, I also have had bad bosses, right?

23:53 You said there was a boss that didn't know, sorry, there was a boss that didn't know that you were married and have kids. And, and I have, you have to be careful when you say timing and what your rank was, but, um, I've worked for tremendous, wonderful leaders, but there, there were one or two where you, you go in and you know, they're like, this is your job. This is what I want you to do. This is what I expect from you. And they don't ask you one question about yourself and, and you walk out of those rooms going. What is it I'm here for, you know, like just to, you know, task, task, task, and not, um, you know, like build a family and a friendship in your office organization.

24:32 So I've just always, I've always gone that extra mile to get to know the people that I work with, not just really up the chain of command or so down the chain of command. It's funny because I don't really care what leaders think of me. Right. I mean, obviously you get jobs based off of leaders knowing that you can lead, but I care about what the people. That are below, you know, subordinate, but they think of me, how did I make them feel as a leader? How did they want to come to work or not come to work? Cause if they don't like working where I'm at, we're not going to retain them. They're not going to reenlist. They're not going to stay. Um, I like to focus on the little things and it's funny cause I write this on my, what do you call it?

25:14 ODP, whatever we, we have to write why we want jobs. You know, obviously I was selected for promotion or whatever, and you have to say what you want on the general bench. You know, what, what. Strategic techniques or skills do you bring to the table? I write silly things. Like I just want to make people have feel like they have a sense of belonging where I work. I want to do something, the small things that make a difference for the people that, that work within our organization. I write things like that all the time. So, you know, like, I'm just like, that's all that matters. My big brain strategy, policy, blah, blah, blah. There are enough people that work within our ranks to do those things.

25:51 My job at this level is to make sure that. They have. What they need to do those things. Um, so I just have always felt that way. I mean, you, I don't know if you know, I went to the army war college and I, my strategic research, I might not have told you this, but I wrote about leading with love. That was my topic. My, you know, retired army Colonel professor was like, wait, you want to write about what? And I said, I want to write about leading with love. He said, how about we use another word? That's kind of cringe. I'm like, Ooh, the fact that it makes you cringe makes me want to use it more. Like, because we are too afraid to use the word love. When we talk about leadership and when we are too afraid to throw in all the important emotional intelligence, things that our leaders should have and don't the reason why we have toxic leaders and the reason why we have people leaving the military is because they don't feel like they are appreciated, period.

26:44 And when you say appreciated, I say, love, just like you said, they don't feel, I use the word sense of belonging, uh, you know, like you should feel like when you come to work, whether you're just coming on the job, you're just coming on the job, you're just coming on the job, you're just coming on the job, you're just coming on the job. You know, drill weekend or full time that you're excited to come there and you're excited to check in with your coworkers to see how their month has been right. Cause our drill status guardsmen show up, you know, for two days, once a month, like, Hey, what's happened in the past month, what's going on in your civilian job, what's going on with your kids, you know, and then we have fun and camaraderie and just connection.

27:17 Like that law of connection that John Maxwell talks about, I mean, like connecting not only within your organization, but all the people strategically. And other parts of the organization that, that make you who you are, I don't know. So I don't know, I wouldn't say that I'm kind and nice and all this, but I feel like those are the things that I always appreciated when leaders treated me like that. And so therefore I wanted to always do that down the chain. Have you gone back to any high school reunions? Yeah, well, my 30th is this summer, so my 20th, I don't think we had a 25th cause it was COVID, I'm class of 95, so 2000 would have been 25. So yeah, but yeah, did 20, did 10 and 20 in California.

28:03 So what kind of stories have you shared with those people that were giggling and, and thinking that you were crazy to join the Air Force? They're proud of me. I mean, they're proud of me, you know, and it's, it's cool. You know, like when I made Colonel five years ago, it's funny, my data rank just passed for my five years as a Colonel or whatever. I was like, oh, that was kind of fun to make that. Could you imagine, right? Like 25 years ago, 30 years ago that like, if you told Airman basic Cheatham that she would be a Colonel in the United States Air Force 25 years later, I would have said, shut, shut up. You're lying. And that I was Senate selected for general.

28:39 I mean, good golly, like you never would have thought, right? So I think that the mill, like I was stationed at the Naval Postgraduate School in 2005 from 04 to 06. So I was actually stationed in Monterey, California for my tenure high school reunion. So I was a captain getting my MBA and I think I was helping, you know, plan the decorations committee or something. So, so those friends at that time knew I was, you know, had been in the military for a while and, you know, I was a young officer and that seemed cool. But, you know, I think that those friends who have followed me and continue to stay on my Facebook feed or whatever, like, whoa, that's fancy rank or whatever.

29:16 You know, most of them don't even know what Colonel means, but they're like, wow, you're still in the military. Dang. It's been a while. I'm like, yeah, been a while. We must have been on the same scroll. Yeah. Because I'm pretty sure I just passed five years as well. So we must have been on the same. Yeah. November 19. The same scroll. Yeah. I think we've been promoted the last couple of sites together. Around the same time. I have not gone back to any of my high school reunions. Really? So some of them was. In Washington State? In Washington State. Some of them was because I was in pilot training or I was deployed or I was doing missions. I always had an excuse.

29:51 Because you didn't want to go or? I didn't want to go. Really? Yeah. As a, as a young. Man that didn't have the greatest upbringing. I had a chip on my shoulder like you would not believe. So I was just such an ass. Oh no. In high school? Yeah. Were you mean to people? Like, or just? Not so, not so much that I was mean. I was just so, everything was a challenge. Nothing is going to stop me. Because it was my way of guarding against some of my secrets and my demons. So I was, I, I come up with excuses. Because I'm kind of ashamed of the way I was. I wasn't purposely hurtful or mean to anybody. But like I said, I had zero tolerance for anything that I disagreed with.

30:42 Anything that I was against. I was very judgmental. Yeah. So I, I apologize to people all the time. They're like, Mike, what are you talking about? You were so nice. They probably don't even remember. You did this. And they don't even think about it that way. But I thought about that. Maybe it was internal. It was internal. Maybe you felt that way internally when you weren't voicing it to people. Yeah. I had so many things that growing up where I grew up, there was a lot of upper middle class people like you were describing. I remember I was in eighth grade and my Spanish teacher made fun of me for having short pants. Because I had, you know, grown. She says, oh, Miguelito, are you waiting for a flood?

31:20 And it just, it hurt so bad because I always hid the, the shame and the, and the disappointment. So yeah, I've never, I've never gone back to one. Is it, are you 95? I'm 94. Okay. So did you just miss the 30th? I did. Yeah. I saw pictures of a lot of folks that I used to know. 40th. Mark it on your calendar. Um, and there was just, yeah, such a sense of, of, of shame that, um. They'd be proud. They'd be proud of you. Yeah. I know. A lot of them are. So many people reach out and, hey, you're doing so well. And, uh, but yeah, just that internal little voice. Yeah. And so I've been seeing a PTSD counselor for the last six months or so. And he's really helped because it's not just mission related stress.

32:07 It's a lot of childhood stress and they all kind of, they all kind of come together. But the reason I was asking you if there was a time or a place that that switch flipped and you, and you became more of a emotionally intelligent leader. For me, it was in the RPA mission. It was such a dark and violent time. Um, I mean, I, I just. I just have killed so many people that I, I think about it all the time. Really? Yeah. And there was responses with pilots that I flew with that I really disagreed with how they were responding to what we were doing. Like they were like. Like it was kind of a video game. Yeah. It was kind of a macho thing. And it re it bothered me for a long time.

32:52 Uh, but my counselor was recently telling me, he says, Mike, realize that everybody responds to these things in a different way. So that might've been their way of protecting themselves and showing their, their toughness, their, the machismo when in reality they were, they were hurting inside as well. Yeah. So that's why I was asking about the switch. Yeah. Cause that's kind of when the switch flipped on me. And I, I tell people, I said it took 45 seconds to change my life. I said there was a particular mission where I had a hellfire strike that was 45 seconds to end somebody's life. And it made me realize rather than taking lives. I prefer to save lives.

33:30 And so that's why I have these conversations to hopefully there's somebody out there that sees and hears your story and thinks, my goodness, I had no idea that women did cool things in the military. Women made it to be colonels in the military. Women had the opportunity to be a general officer in the military. We had that conversation in the, in the Pentagon hallway about breaking barriers. And that's why I thought it was so cool to see General Buells be the new readiness center commander. Cause I don't know, I don't know if we've had a female readiness center commander. I'm unaware if we, if we had. You haven't and you haven't had a non-operator. A non-operator.

34:07 And you know, we had that conversation. Well, you know, oh, Mike, well you're a pilot. You're a pilot. You know, everybody, you know, everybody thinks pilots are amazing. And I'm, and once again, I've never recognized or thought of myself as a pilot. So Mike McDonald, A1, he's like, oh, you have the universal leadership badge. You're a pilot. You can do anything. Like, sir, I don't think about it like that. I think about it more of in the air force, the weapon system expert is the pilot for such a long time that we're behind the power curve when it comes to leadership. So if anything, You need leaders. Yeah. You need, you need support personnel that had been around the enlisted corps and have

34:49 led a lot of people at a younger age, whether that's security forces, logistics, all these other career fields in the air force, they get more leadership opportunities well before a pilot does. And so when you were talking about that caustic leadership or that, that, um, that lack of emotional intelligence, it's because the pilot's been told since day one, you're special. You, you, you're the pointy end of the spear. We can't do this without you. And I tell people all the time, there's 50 steps in the kinetic chain. I think general North house, that's one of his briefs is it takes 50 steps, 50 different organizations, 50 different people, 50 different professions that touch.

35:28 That pilot that actually drops that bomb or fires on this. Yeah. So I've had multiple conversations with people just saying, Hey, we're all in this together. It's finance is a perfect example. How many people complain about money? Oh gosh, it takes so long to get my travel voucher done or all these complaints. I've had pilots come into my office and I said, look, do you realize that team down there is 10 people and they're trying to get 1600 people paid. Do you honestly think that person does that? Doesn't care about your, about your paycheck and your family. They do. They're overwhelmed. My goodness. It is such an overwhelming systems. I think the problem, not to get into finance, but we have done so much in the force support

36:12 and the finance systems that we're trying to automate it and make it better. But in the process it's 10 times worse and it's slow and you know, you're stuck with those antiquated systems. That's the challenge. They take away the manpower because the systems are promising to deliver certain jobs. Some things and they're not. And then the people who are left to man these, you know, finance systems that are failing us. Just, you know what I'm saying? Like we have a lot of stuff to do in that area. That leads me to another question then. Um, having served both in operational roles and at the Pentagon, how do you see the relationship between policy creation at the top and its implementation at the unit level?

36:55 What insights have you gained from seeing both sides? So like you said, we come up with these. New software ideas and it's going to fix the pay. It's going to fix the system. Being in the Pentagon and seeing what it's like in the glass and the glass tower. What, what insights can you share? I think that we need to be careful. We Air Force wide or DOD wide need to not, I don't want to say the word unleash, but implement systems that haven't been fully tested. Right? So what we've done in the past is we've sunsetted systems that worked because we're bringing in the new system on. And when we haven't proved its capability a hundred percent, that's a detriment to the

37:36 field. That was evidenced in the end of 2021 and all of 22 when we brought in my FSS and my deck and my EPRs or OPBs, whatever they're called. It wasn't ready. And, but we sunsetted VPC that was working. So we created a huge hole in a vacuum for ourselves that we couldn't process, you know, reports for like four to six months. And that was bad. Um, from a seeing it down in the ground. When I'm in the field versus seeing it at the Pentagon, uh, when I'm in the field, I love to talk about NGB and how they're up here doing great things to make it better for us. And so it's just about highlighting that communication is important. We need to give at the, at the field, at the state level, at the wing level, you've

38:20 got to give feedback back to NGB to let them know what's working and what's not. Those connections are real. Those relationships are important. And then of course, sitting in NGB doing things, we have to keep what the state or the wing needs in our minds as we're processing policy. And then we also have to make sure we have the right people in the right jobs. And I'm going to get a little personal here, but I have currently started a job that I was placed in because of when NGB space operations, you know, kind of dissolved last year, I was placed in a big policy job and I'm processing these, all this stuff. And that's not my heart. My heart is not to sit here and type up, um, policies.

39:04 You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't like doing staff summary sheets and you know, I, I like getting stuff done and making a difference for the warfighter, but administratively, that's not my jam to sit here and plug stuff in. So too many layers away from the actual, there's no people. Yeah. I go to a cubicle every day and I have no people and that's my jam, right? People leaving people like my, I mean, just like I love going and getting coffee and getting a coffee for the person sitting next to me. And when I have no one sitting next to me and no one in my. Cubicle and it's radio silence and everyone's just do, do, do, do, do, do, do, you know, and no one wants to be social or have coffee or most people are teleworking or whatever the

39:42 deal is. I'm like, I'm dying a slow death in a place that I don't get to lead airmen and make a difference. Right. And they, people could say, oh, but you're making a strategic difference by, by typing all those things. Mom. Yeah. Yeah. Can you share your coffee story that you posted? You got into a conversation, I think with the general officer online that was talking about, Hey, saving money. Oh yeah. Lemon. Yeah. Please share that story. So he is a really good, so he's, this is a friend of mine and he is very good at like finance and he's investing and making really smart decisions with his money, which I do as well. Right. I mean, my husband and I both being military, we have, we can make investments and do whatever,

40:21 but he was saying, why would people go to a expensive coffee? No, I won't use any brands, but you know what, why would you pay $7 for coffee? You know, buy the coffee at home, brew it city fence, you know, and he's trying to teach his kids. And his coworkers, like you could save $200 a month on coffee. And this is, you know, $2,400 a year and you can invest that. And then that grows. He's trying to show this like financial, um, the growth over 10 years. And now you're, you're a millionaire because you don't drink coffee and you know, whatever he's right. That's correct. Uh, however I argued with him because that's always fun to do. And I said, Hey, my thing is like, that's my time to bond with somebody and make a connection.

41:01 I love going to get coffee. I love meeting people for coffee because that's where the stuff gets done. Not typing up a staff summary sheet and figuring out how I want to word something that's going to go through the glass doors. I want to go talk the problem out in person with you with our $7 lattes, right? So 14 bucks right now. So, and, but that's my, like my love language is that time together. And my love language is to buy your coffee, right? Like, so now I'm, so then I joke with him cause I'm like, no, I'm spending twice as much. Cause I'm trying to, I'm trying to have those connections. And buy those coffees and spend that money so that I can get what makes me happy.

41:39 And that is a time with people and that connection. And you know, during the recession of 2008, I was stationed in Korea and everybody was losing money on their investments. If you had looked at your TSP, it would have been less than 50% of what you put into it. It was a very depressing time. And I remember talking to somebody who was going out to get ice cream and you know, they were poor or whatever. There was no one had money, whatever. And I'm like, well, why are you going, why are people going and getting ice cream? Why are you going to Cold Stone? And it's like $10 a pop for ice cream. I'm sorry. I'm not supposed to say brands, but you're going to the super expensive ice cream store.

42:13 And I heard somebody say, they're not going out to dinner with their family cause they can't afford a hundred dollar dinner. They're making their macaroni and cheese at home, eating their vegetables. And then they're just going to go give their kids ice cream. And so that let's say costs $20. That is the experience that they're trying to give their kids. So they're still making their cuts where they need to. And what might look like splurging to you is that's the budget that they've created. And it's actually cheaper than you going out to dinner, you know, twice a month with your family. They can go out to ice cream twice a week and it's cheaper than what you're doing because

42:48 they're making their cuts elsewhere. So anyway, so yeah, that was a funny conversation with, with Lemon about coffee because I'm like, man, I love, that's my favorite thing is to, I have a high, I have a big budget for coffee. I spend thousands of dollars a month, a year on coffee. When I look at my, what I pay on my little, whatever I analyze my costs. And that to me is the cost of doing business. It's in my, it's in my budget. And my husband's fine with that. You know, he's like spent a lot of money at Starbucks. So what, what you've described is exactly what I'm doing here. You can tell you said lemon. Yeah. Well, that's his call sign. You can tell him I probably have $40,000 worth of stuff in here.

43:30 I'm not making any money doing this. I'm not anticipating making any money doing this. I'm doing this to give a platform for veterans to share their stories and to inspire others. So that one day, you know, that, that Salinas senior in high school says, wow, look at the opportunities and where that shaped and where that went. So yeah, this is my way of having a chance to get to know people on a more intimate level because I know that you're going to go and continue to do great things. And so now this builds a relationship with us that we can parlay into other things in the future, whether that is another, you know, veteran benefit program or some way to give back that.

44:13 Yeah. That's why, that's why I do this. It's so, so interesting and fascinating. So your family stayed in DC while you commanded in Connecticut, right? Many military families face similar geographic separations. How has your personal experience with this challenge influenced your attitude? Advocacy for military families? So this is a tough question because I think I can answer it for and against these types of situations, right? Like for meaning it's really great to go and get your command experience when you have a strong family unit who can manage while you're gone, right? My husband was also a full-time Colonel, three kids in high school. Moving would be hard and not to mention he wouldn't have a job in Connecticut, right?

45:01 He was stationed in DC. So having that strong unit that could handle things back at home while I went up to Connecticut was great. And the close proximity, i.e. eight-hour drive or a one-hour flight, that helped because I was able to fly a lot. I would fly Monday morning at 6 a.m., land at 7.30 at Bradley, which was like a shared runway with the International Airport and our wing, and really get to work by like 8.15. And so I'd even beat people to work sometimes, which I would joke because I'm like, I started in DC. What's your excuse today? So we made it work, right? But you need the time, the resources, and the spouse commitment. So you're kind of like that geo-batch thing, you're not getting compensated.

45:48 So your BH usually goes down for where you get stationed. You have to maintain two households. So that becomes a double bill. And then you have to fly back and forth. And then the time away from your kids, that's tough. So even though I had an amazing experience in Connecticut, and I wouldn't trade it for the world, I met so many cool people. I had such a great command team. My first sergeant, my group senior enlisted leader, SEL, my secretary, admin assistant. My entire crowd that was right there in my front office was like the best. Like best leaders, awesome people. I had five strong squadron commanders, great chiefs in all of my squadrons. And just it was fun too to be an outsider because I think some of the young airmen appreciated

46:34 that outlook, like you used to work at the Pentagon, or tell me about your experience that's not been 30 years of Connecticut, right? Because a lot of times we get that at our wings. We have a lot of people who have been there the whole time, which is great. They know everything about that state and that wing, but it's really neat to bring somebody from the outside to kind of have a different shared experience. But on the other hand, as a mom, you have guilt, right? Like why did I go do group command? How long were you gone for? For 21 months, so about two years, but a little less. And the guilt is what did I miss with my kids, right? So I did fly home three times a month, but I had one drill weekend every month,

47:19 so I'd be gone for 12 straight days before I would come home again for those types of, that timeline. And with my husband, you know, he did a lot more work with the kids, so there's those benefits of like, he became soccer dad. He's like the travel soccer dad guru, knows all the travel soccer moms, travel soccer dads, and that's his jam now. So maybe he created a stronger link with my teenage daughter that wouldn't have happened had I not been gone for those two years, right? So you have those residual benefits. But then you have the guilt, the mom guilt. Like, well, was I there long enough for my kids? What did I miss? Like even though I was home, you know, Friday night, Saturday night, and Sunday night,

48:03 like three times a month. So I was home nine nights a month, which is a lot. There's still 21 nights I wasn't there. So those are hard questions and that you don't really know until later on in life, right? Like I know that I chose to go do command because my four-star boss was like, if you want to be competitive for general, you have to do 06 command. So we do it. And then it's funny because like now, I'm kind of making the decision to maybe not pin on general, right? It's like you've made it, but maybe my life is going to take a different route and I might not, you know, stay and become one. So you make those sacrifices so that you don't self-eliminate yourself from future opportunities,

48:53 which I think is what would happen if you don't go do those awesome opportunities that aren't always offered where you are locally. I really struggled telling a general practitioner, Pyrrhic, that I was going to retire. It caused just unbelievable amounts of anxiety because of so many things that they've done for me. We all know we do not get here alone. It is a tremendous support network of our leaders and mentors that make that happen. So I felt like I had this duty to continue and to be a general officer. But what I told them is I said, sir, I'm not leaving this culture. It is part of me. My mental health would not stop me. I would not survive if I didn't know that I could continue to be part of the Guard.

49:40 But I told them I honestly feel like I can give back and actually do more in a coat and tie than I can in uniform, just based on my personality and the things that I'm good at and the things that I'm interested in. Like you said, as you move to general officer in some of these higher ranks, you're a little more detached from the actual people. And the people are what give me the energy. And I feel like that we're very similar from that capacity. But I wanted to go back to what you were mentioning earlier. I think about being away from your family and what that impact could be in the future with your kids. When I try to tell the story and recruit people and tell them how important service is,

50:22 that's one of the things they mention. Oh, the time away from home. You're gone to all these locations. I feel like you build a lot of resiliency within your children as well, though, when you do leave. And I missed my youngest. I missed his first birthday. It was so important. It was so painful. Thankfully, we had internet in Djibouti, Africa, where I was, so I could go sit down and watch his birthday party over the computer. There's a lot of people that don't get that opportunity. So I was even thankful for having that internet access to be able to watch his party. But I cried the whole time. Those are tough times when you miss those things. But now that I look back at it,

51:05 guess what's the most memorable birthday party out of all my children's birthdays? That one. It created a bond and a fondness for him that I don't think I necessarily would have had if I hadn't deployed and I hadn't been serving the mission. And my wife and my sister-in-law were taking pictures, and they have a picture of him sitting on the floor. With the camera. Yeah, pointing at dad and the camera. And that's my favorite photo of him, and I wasn't even there. So how do we, as seniors, as senior leaders explain to the next generation that being away from home and challenging yourself and getting outside of your comfort zone, you grow far beyond what you would ever imagine.

51:56 What if you stayed in California and never left Salinas, California? Who would you be today? Not who I am. Yeah, I mean, I think about that all the time. I think about how strong and resilient my kids are because we moved around a lot because I was active duty for 12 years, a reservist for eight years, and then at my 20-year mark, I joined the Guard, right? So, like, my kids have lived in Asia. Like, they've lived in Korea for a couple years. They've lived in Hawaii for a couple years, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, California. Where else have they lived? In Virginia a couple times. And so there are challenges that come with those moved schools and four elementary schools within five years.

52:40 That's tough. But are they stronger and prepared for life because of that? Yeah. Yeah. And then my, you know, you say your son's first birthday. So we adopted, later on, we adopted our daughter from China. And so when we had three kids, she had come home from China in, like, September. She was about almost three years old. I was deployed to Jordan in May of that following year, in 2012. And so she was my first Mother's Day with three children, right, with my daughter and my two sons. I was in Jordan. And so, you know, I remember that. And I remember hearing from Brian, you know, like, Happy Mother's Day. And you're just, like, bawling in your, you know. We lived in hard shelters.

53:23 But you're bawling because you're like, I'm not with my kids on Mother's Day. But they don't remember it. I mean, they were, like, five, four, and three at the time. So, you know, it's a picture and it's a story. And it's something that they became resilient to and that we remember. And that's part of service, too. I mean, we have it so much better than the people who served in World War II. And who mailed letters and came across on ships, right? Like, we have Wi-Fi and we're FaceTiming during deployments. My first deployment in 1998 was not like that. I wasn't married. I was single, you know, senior airman. But when I called my parents, it was, like, a one-hour morale call

54:04 from, like, a morale tent once a week. With a bunch of phones in your tent. Yeah. And it wasn't. And you had to call DSN to, like, the nearest military installation, you know, near your parents' hometown. But, I mean, like, so, I mean, 10 years later after that, I mean, here I am FaceTiming my kids. Like, it's a totally different story. And now it's been 10 more years, right? So it's just cooler how much in communication we are with our deployed folks. I had the opportunity to chat with some classified institutions that are looking for people to work in the classified environment. And they said that they're having trouble recruiting younger people because they're so attached to their phones and they're so connected.

54:48 Through social media and all these other things. It boggles my mind that somebody would pass up a well-paying, very fascinating job, but it's behind closed doors where you can't have your phone. What can we do to try and convince the youth of today that it's okay to not check your TikTok account until you get home from work? Because you're going to be doing really important things that have a far more drastic impact on our national security than, you know, you working a standard job at, you know, you name it. I think that across the nation, we need to be less addicted to our phones and to our social media platforms. So there is, whether you're working in a SCIF or not, you should have your phone not on you

55:39 during your 8-hour, 10-hour duty day, right? Because it leads to distractions and you're not focused on what you're supposed to be doing. But yeah, definitely, it's interesting that they would pass up great opportunities because you have to work in a secured environment for 8 hours. Yeah. I personally like it. It sounds weird, but I like having my phone outside in the locker so I can go in and focus on work with less distraction. Yeah, it's hard. How do you, how do we tell, I mean, that's a recruitment problem too, not just from a secure job perspective, but like how do we get young people to come to military, period. Right? When it's like, well, I can just be an influencer.

56:17 I asked one of my kids, and this was a few years ago, and now he's in college, but a few years ago, I was like, hey, what do you want to do? He's like, I want to be a YouTuber. I'm like, ah, that's not really a job, you know? Like, that's what they thought. Like, no, I could be like whoever these famous people are on the internet. And I'm like, ah, yeah, you kind of need to think about something that's going to be a little more, you know, long range, a real job, that kind of thing. And so how do we continue to influence our kids and our youth across the nation to serve, right? They say less and less people are apt to serve because a lot of times the younger kids served because their parents

56:57 and their grandparents served, and we're getting less of that. Less people are serving. So therefore, they don't have a grandfather that was in World War II, right? Like, people are just like, oh, yeah, I'm going to go to college. I just think that if I had a different profession, let's say the airlines, for example, and I have plenty of friends that work for the airlines, and they enjoy it because they said, hey, I go to work, and then I'm done, and I detach. That's true. I'm with my family. So this is not a bash on the airlines or faulting any of my friends for doing that. I completely understand. But in service, it's such a purpose-driven life. When I get up in the morning, I know that I'm making a difference.

57:38 I know that I have an opportunity to change someone's life. When I thought to myself, okay, I'm going to wake up today, and I'm going to fly to Dallas, and then I'm going to fly to L.A., and then I'm going to crew rest, and then I don't know who I'm going to be with. It could be completely different random folks on the plane. I was on the crew that day, and I've heard just horror stories of conversations that have taken place. So I'm thinking, I love flying because I get to fly with my friends. I get to fly with the people I care about. We get to do all these amazing things, air refueling and low levels and all these assault landings and all these interesting missions.

58:12 That's what I enjoyed about flying. It wasn't that I get to fly an airplane and make money. It was I get to do all these really cool things. How do we convince kids that a purpose-driven life, whether it's less pay than them working for a Fortune 500 company, but that purpose is what makes the difference. It's what gets me up out of bed in the morning. It's not the salary. It's the making a difference. I think it's also building culture. It's the purpose connected to a culture that you fostered in your unit. And so as an Air Force, we have a culture, but then we also have a climate and a culture. We have a subculture of our specific wings or organizations.

59:00 So that purpose mixed with people wanting to come to work because it's a place, like you said, where you're working with the same crew, where you're working with people who care about you, and you get to do kind of like the same mission set over and over again with those people and they know you and you know them and you are making a difference. So I want to close off with this one because you said you're pondering retirement versus promotion and what that next path is. We were joking in the hallway and you said you're joking about wanting to run a dog care service in retirement. Not dog care. So do you want me to explain it to you? Yes, please. I want to open up a nonprofit in this.

59:41 I'm almost laughing saying it because I see it in my head as being a total success in a few years, but to get there, to create a nonprofit from scratch is going to be hard, right? But we had puppies come visit the Pentagon one time when I worked in General Lengel's office, and it was a puppy roadshow from an organization, like a canine warrior connection that gives dogs to veterans that have PTSD. They need people to raise the puppies, and then they need people to have the puppies, right? The customers. They need someone to say, hey, I need a dog to help me with my PTSD for the rest of my life, and this is my dog. So these puppies came into the Pentagon, and there was three of them.

1:00:19 And we had them in the Minuteman conference room or whatever, and all these people came and hugged these little puppies and snuggled with these puppies, and it was like the best day ever in the Pentagon. Like people years later would see me in the Pentagon, and they're like, remember that day that the puppies were here? And now we have facility dogs in the Pentagon, like a few dogs that work in the Pentagon and are facility dogs through America's Vet Dogs. But what we don't have is just a wagon full of puppies that people can just come and snuggle with. So imagine taking a coffee break or a smoke break from your highly strategic, job at the Pentagon, right?

1:00:56 Everybody's doing hard work. And just walking downstairs and just snuggling some puppies, right? So I want to open up something that has a brick-and-mortar space at the Pentagon where I work with local shelters and some breeders to where I bring in, like, let's say, five puppies in three times a week, and we're on the schedule in our little spot, our little brick-and-mortar spot with some beanbag chairs and some couches and a wagon, and we have puppies. We're not selling puppies. We're not giving away puppies. We're basically borrowing these puppies. They are our employees for the day. And they're there so that anybody who works or visits the Pentagon can just come and get some reprieve, reduce their stress, right?

1:01:38 Make them smile. Have a puppy look on your face, right? Like, just hold that puppy and just feel re-energized and building resilience and that type of stuff. So it's interesting because it's not like a puppy care center and it's not like I'm not giving away puppies. I'm not giving puppies away for adoption. I'm just working with places that let me borrow their puppies, and I'm just providing a service to people who just need to walk out of their office because they're about to go crazy because stuff's hitting the fan and everything's happening in the Pentagon and people are, you know, it gets crazy sometimes there. And this is just a place where you can come see puppies.

1:02:16 And my husband laughs because he doesn't even love dogs. He's like, that sounds crazy. And I'm like, it's not. It's going to be awesome. If I ever do it, it's going to be awesome. But that's hard. What do you mean if you ever do it? You're going to do it. Well, I want to do it. You're going to do it. But you start, let's talk about logistics. You need to raise money because, like, first of all, I'm not going to have a salary. I'm going to be doing it all for free, right? So you have to create an organization that's getting donations so people can support this because it's helping. It's truly going to be like puppy therapy, like unofficially, right? But we can have volunteers and we can have people who work that do this, right?

1:02:52 I'm going to have people that have to, you know, reach out to the different shelters to see what puppies we can borrow when, how is transportation going to work, how is health going to work, how is sanitation going to work, Pentagon space, right? Physical space. I've already kind of been talking to people who deal with the retail section. I want the AT&T store. There's like that store right across from CVS. I want that space like kind of like on the main drag of the Pentagon where it's like your little area. But that's expensive. That rent is like a lot of money. It's like a few thousand dollars a month. So then how do you get that retail space when you're really not making money, right?

1:03:29 I'm not going to charge people to come in and cuddle a puppy for 10 or 15 minutes. So a lot, you know, I have to have a lawyer. I have to have insurance. But I would only work with puppies six months and younger because those aren't going to be aggressive puppies, right? I mean, there are definitely shelter dogs that need to be loved, but this is truly going to be the Pentagon Puppy Pod. It's going to be called the Triple P, Pentagon Puppy Pod. I like it. And it's going to be so awesome because people will all want to come by and see the puppies. And when we can work with certain breeders and shelters where we kind of have a schedule of what puppies are coming when

1:04:07 and somebody knows that there's going to be, you know, five little baby corgis next week, they're going to come that day and see those pups and whatever. But it's going to take some work, and that's the scary part, right? We're scared of the unknown. But what I want to do when I grow up is I want to make a bigger difference and impact on people. And I think, what jobs can I do that in? Can I promote to one star and create, like, big impact on people? Or can I retire as a colonel and open up the Pentagon Puppy Pod and make so many people happy every day? Because at the end of the day, I want to be happy. I want to have fun. I want to bring—I want to pretend—not pretend.

1:04:50 I want to bring joy to people and also be joyful myself. And that's my— that's been my fear with promoting. It's like, what one-star job is going to be super joyful? I don't know, right? There's a few jobs out there, but where can you make a big difference? You know, I have airmen that will say— airmen that I led in the past are like, I can't believe you're thinking about retiring. You can do so much for our organization. And I'm like, but how? You know, in the Pentagon policy, you know, arena. Or can I just do something that my heart— that's been laid on my heart with these puppies? Like, every day I have a frustrating day in the Pentagon, I'm like, oh, I just need a wagon full of puppies.

1:05:36 Wouldn't that make today better? And I joke, but I think there's some validity to it. I think that it can truly be a warm thing where people feel like they just are having stress reduced in their mind, in their heart, in their blood pressure by just really snuggling a puppy for 10 or 15 minutes. So that's my crazy idea. Super crazy. It's not crazy. And here's the power of networking. One of my friends, Isaac, is on the board of directors for a nonprofit veterans dog association. I forget the name of it. But he's somebody that I'll definitely introduce to you because that's how these networks work. So you can introduce him. And you talk about making people happy and making a difference.

1:06:24 I woke up this morning excited knowing that you were going to come here and talk because I just love meeting interesting people. And allowing that story to be shared so hopefully we can find others out there that are inspired to serve just by some of the stories you've shared. So as we close, what is one thing that I have forgotten to ask about that you think we'd like to share before we go? Maybe would I do it again? I don't know. I mean, I think I probably answered that. But would Amanda Beth Cheatham from Salinas, California at age 17 do it again? Right? Like I went to Mets by myself. Like my parents let me drive. I drove to Oakland, California in my 1995 Ford Thunderbird

1:07:19 with no MapQuest and definitely no GPS. I got on like the 880. The 680 to the 880 and took my ASVAB at a Mets in Oakland, California. Like that just sounds crazy. I would never let my 17-year-old daughter do that ever. But like at what point did fear not overtake me? It didn't, right? I was like, I'm doing this. This is my way out of Salinas. This is my way to pay for college. This is my way to make something of myself. I haven't shared this story with many people, but I was in basic training and I was recycled, which means you get kicked back a week. I forgot what I did, but nothing horrible, but just 17-year-old me. And I had to do an extra week in basic training.

1:08:01 I mean, talk about feeling like a loser. That's what they did with all the losers, right? And my TI is like, you're never going to make it. And I'd be like, hey, do you want to see my Senate confirmation to general? TI? No, I mean, I'm joking. But it's like I did make it. I survived because I didn't let it knock me down. And, you know, being an airman and then seeing those officers and being like, I want to be like that. You know, not that I wanted to be all bossy and in charge, but I was like, they're making twice as much as me. And they're running this place and they're getting to lead. Like, I'm going to get my degree and do that. And then you become an officer, right?

1:08:34 And then I'm like, ooh, I'm a lieutenant. But, man, you see that major and that lieutenant colonel over there? They're commanding. They're leading. I want to make a difference, you know? And then I did that. And then group command. I mean, just all the cool things I've been able to do, right? Worked for two different forces. Four stars. Two different joint chiefs as execs and front office type operations. Like, even though somebody might say, oh, that's just management of a front office. No, it is a strategic operation in those four star offices. And the tone that you set in that organization as the lead exec, you're making a difference and making sure that your principle is successful.

1:09:10 All those things I did after coming in as a 17-year-old airman who had no idea what she was doing. So I would do it again. You know? Tons of life experiences. You know, starting from the bottom, right? E1. It's pretty cool that I made it. And I'm not saying it's all because of me. It's all because of the people that I got to work with and who inspired me along the way and the leaders who led with love. And that's now what I do for people. That's awesome. When you get your puppies and you're going to do it, I'm coming to see the puppies because that would bring happiness to my heart as well. It's going to be fun. It's my fear because I still have fear, right?

1:09:53 Is that it's going to be a lot of work and a lot of red tape and a lot of things. And I'm going to need some help. I'm happy to help. You'll be one of my helpers. I love puppies. I'm happy to help. Well, thank you so much. Thanks. I appreciate you coming over today. I appreciate you interviewing me. Absolutely.