I Had to Tell My Sons I Was Dying

Full transcript

14,792 words · 1:26:24 runtime

00:00 Reconnecting After 20 Years of Military Service

0:00 Hey everybody, welcome to a very special episode of Voice for Valor. I'm your host Mike, and today's conversation is deeply personal to me. After 20 years, I finally reconnected with one of my closest friends from my military days. We served together in missile training, and sitting down to record this episode felt like picking up exactly where we left off all those years ago. The moment we saw each other, the decades just melted away. We jumped right into stories about our training days, the challenges we faced together, those late nights cramming for tests, and all the unforgettable characters we served alongside. It really brought home how military bonds are different from anything else in life.

0:52 What makes this conversation particularly meaningful is that my friend recently received the diagnosis of Terminal Stage 4 Mesothelioma. Hearing him talk about facing this news head-on, making the most of his time with his family, and finding purpose even now, it's both heartbreaking and incredibly inspiring to me as his old brother-in-arms. Throughout our conversation, we keep coming back to the lessons that stuck with us from our service. The importance of genuinely caring for people under your command, and why we need to trust young leaders to step up, and how our military experience shaped both of us for life. This episode is an honor to be a part of your life.

1:42 It's not always an easy listen, but it's one that means the world to me. It's about friendship. It's about standing the test of time, facing impossible odds with courage, and finding meaning in both the good and difficult parts of life. Whether you served or not, I think you'll find something valuable in listening to two old friends sharing our wisdom, our memories, and our unbreakable bond. So you know the rules. Grab a coffee, maybe even a tissue or two, and join us for this conversation about brotherhood. Brotherhood, resilience, and making every moment count.

02:25 The Hard Decision to Retire for Family

2:25 Dude, when was the last time we've seen each other? Oh, dude, seeing each other? It's been quite a while. The last time we talked was when I was back in New Mexico. I think we caught up about maybe a year or two ago, but last time we've seen each other, it's been a while. Has it been since pilot training? Yeah, when you were at Del Rio. Wow. Yeah, I was on my way to- That was over 20 years ago. Yeah, no kidding, dude. You still look the same. So do you. Just a little less hair. No hair. Couldn't help that. I had to get rid of it. I tell you what. So I tell people all the time about the military, and I think it wasn't General Walters. Well, now General Walters. It was his vice wing commander. His

3:27 name escapes me on some. I see him all the time. I see his picture at the Pentagon gym all the time, and he used to say, that he had traveled all over the country, and he always had somewhere to stay because of military relationships. Yeah. And so here it has been 20 years, and it's like we can just flip a switch, and we're just back together as friends. Dude, I remember back in the day in Cheyenne, when you would do your private pilot's license and your training in Cessna in the Cheyenne airport. I remember that, man. I was like, holy crap. You're flying in this dinky 52. Dude. Do you remember? Of course you remember, but for the listeners out there, it was you, me, and I can't remember if it was Justin or another

4:13 person, and we all went flying together, and I took us to that airport that was higher elevation than I'd ran the weight and balance calculations for. I was pulling on the yoke and the airplane was not taking off. I'm like, guys, lean forward, lean forward. I can't remember. Justin. You were laughing so hard. You're like, oh my God, what are we gonna do? like it's gonna be fine it's gonna be fine yeah yeah we had our trust in our pilot it's good so i have flown to that same airport in the c-17 yeah 20 years later i flew i've actually i have a video flying a low level through the colorado rockies and we did some touch and goes at that airfield before we went off to do the low level and i kept thinking this looks so familiar oh yeah

5:03 i was here in a cessna 20 years ago right now here you are in a 172 jeez yeah and and now you know flying around at 300 400 knots everywhere you go to think back that you're going 80 knots that little bug smasher yeah in the in the mountains of wyoming and one of my friends um or you know matt gunther matt would be like yeah i fly ifr you know instrument flight rules he's like no i fly ifr i follow roads you i just find the freeway i look for 14 000 foot mountains and i'm like yeah those mountains are to the west and here's the freeway and here we go that's a good test of his navigation skills i'll tell you that yeah congrats on your upcoming retirement congratulations thank you thank you

5:52 uh february 14th and february 28th i get my dd 214 check of the month club how many years did you have 23 got 22 years make sure you get your your retired id what what drove you to retirement what was it about why why why at 22 years it's uh it was it was a hard decision i don't know if you were if i told you but i practically seven day outed on an assignment and i was bored i was board selected to to be the vice wing commander at cheyenne and you know leading up to that last assignment you know it was always the colonel's group saying oh yeah we'll get you back to omaha we'll get you back to the kids and that's essentially what it was is me getting back to the kids because at that point

6:41 you know when i got selected i was two years already living away from the boys and it was just you know granted phones these days make it a little bit easier but it's just not the same missing those day-to-day activities those milestones just seeing them on the weekends you know i i wanted to get back to to the kids and the air force taunting that carrot in front of me like yeah we'll get you we'll get you back there and then for some reason you know i i opted it out and for some reason my records were still scored and i got selected to go to vice wing command and i was like no i can't do it that's another two two more years of my time away from the kids and i said i'm not gonna do it you know it it took me about five days to make a decision

7:34 to think it over talk to the family talk to the kids you know i was like you know i'm gonna go ahead and turn this down and i'm gonna go ahead and seven day out and i did that and as you know seven day with a seven day out option automatically starts the clock for 120 day automatic retirement so i did that and i don't regret the decision because it was nice to come back and to co-locate cohabitate with my kids and having them here um definitely something that i missed and it's strictly the reason why i decided to do that even though i would have wanted to stay in as much as i can with the air force i just couldn't i couldn't uh swallow being away from

8:16 them for that time so i decided to to retire to hang it up and open a different chapter in my in my life and career but but as you know um things unfolded not the way i wanted so so i retired back in december of 2023 i didn't have any terminal i had leave but i didn't have enough time to do terminal leave because with a seven day out option it just takes a lot of paperwork and approval so by the time i got my retirement approved i had essentially 45 days left of my 120 days clock so i couldn't take any terminal leave because i had to out process get all my retirement stuff situated um so my last official day was december i worked up until december 31st 2023 um granted there was the christmas holidays there and then january 8th i

9:16 started working for a defense contractor um and that was that sparked the beginning of my transition from military to the civilian civilian workforce but again it was nice to be co-located to have to live with the kids because between the um retiring and starting working in with leidos i transitioned back to omaha so so it was nice to be back in omaha to be with the kids for sure so the main reason why i retired is is so i can be back with the kids prior to your diagnosis and we'll dig a little bit further into that prior to your diagnosis

09:50 Transitioning from Colonel to Civilian Workforce

9:52 how was your transition from the military to the defense contract world taking off that uniform and being a mister rather than a colonel you know it was it was it was hard because i really didn't have any downtime from wearing the military uniform to wearing the civilian uniform and i think that's just the virtue of how my retirement unfolded like i said i really didn't need to take terminal leave so i sold back my vacation time my lead time um so i didn't really have any downtime and i went straight to work the transition was a little bit eye-opening to me working in the civilian workforce especially in the defense contracting you deal with a whole

10:35 different set of dynamics and a whole different set of demographics both experience and age-wise you know here i am coming in as a as a 47 year old working amongst college graduates who are all the technical uh technically smart you know in in the technical aspect of things and being a 22-year career guy in the military you know at that point in your career you're more of the the management the leadership the the the manipulation of the organization as opposed to the technical aspect um so i was kind of taken back by the people i was working with and how young they were and you know it was very eye-opening and very humbling um i came in and knowing that i was going to be working for an organization that had a very young workforce

11:25 i had to swallow my pill and take me back and say hey you know i'm going to be in the weeds and i'm going to be working with some young young young guys and i can expect some some grandpa questions from them like hey what would you do if you were faced with this situation so i experienced some of that and and it was nice because i got to like i said work with a younger crew of people um it was different because I had to learn more of the technical aspects. But I did transition. So when I initially retired, I started working for Leidos and Northrop Grumman gave me an opportunity for another position. And so I transitioned from Leidos to Northrop Grumman.

12:09 And one of the stipulations that I asked Northrop Grumman is before I started, I want a month off. I wanted a month of downtime and give me that downtime so I could probably be mentally prepared to work for them. And the whole reason why I did that is because I knew and I recognized that I was missing that downtime to my transition. So I said, hey, Northrop, I'll gladly take the position and thank you for the opportunity. But before I started, I want 30 days before I start because I wanted to have that downtime too. I can mentally prepare and like I said, have the downtime. But it was nice. And working, like I said, with a young workforce, being more technically involved in the nuances

12:57 of day-to-day operations. So it was, like I said, very humbling to work with the young guys who are very more technically smart. And it's nice to see because they're very eager, they're smart, you know? But, and then unfortunately, I only worked with Northrop Grumman for a couple of months, physically, physically worked with them before I had to deal with my medical stuff. So before I got yanked out of the war. You brought up a couple of points that I want to mention. You are the second person that told me, take time off. When you leave, take some time off. And so that's part of the reason why I'm doing all this, the podcasting and just getting to know other veterans

13:37 to these lessons learned that we can share with others. And then the other thing you mentioned, I feel like in the military, the young enlisted, they keep us so, they keep me so young. They keep me grounded. They keep me thinking about all the different dynamics of communication and how we work together. And so were you just kind of a roll up your sleeves kind of guy and really get into the trenches with them? Because you said you came from a senior colonel officer position of, you know, upper level management. And now you're with these young, very technical skilled savvy folks. Yeah, because as you know, as you recall, and you did it too, but, you know, being a senior leader

14:23 and being in command positions, you're worried more of the, you're stretched out pretty thin over a wide umbrella of the operations and you don't really get the opportunity, at least I didn't, get into the weeds of the technicalities of the mission. Because as you know, people, you take care of the people the mission gets taken care of, right? You let them take care of the missions. You clear the hurdles for them. You clear the bureaucracy. You provide them the top cover. And that's how you operate. And that's how I operated for so many years that I really didn't get to the little nuances of how the day-to-day operations were until I got into the civilian workforce

15:04 where I was part of that workforce now at that point. Granted, I probably could have gotten a job that was equivalent to the supervisory role, but I really didn't want to have and to deal with that kind of mindset because I think I was kind of mentally exhausted from having to do all of this. And that stuff, and then just to get, just the overall taking care of the organization can take its toll on an individual. As you probably know, it's tiresome. And I just didn't want to deal with that piece when it came to my civilian chapter. I knew at some point I would probably climb the ladder. I didn't want to start at the very bottom, but I didn't want to stop, start pretty high either.

15:47 I wanted to take a break from the mental, I wouldn't say strain, but just the mental stresses that we encounter being in such supervisory roles of taking care of an organization or leading an organization. It takes a toll on an individual. And I felt that coming, and I just needed to accept or do something that one, kept me busy, two, that kind of financially helped support my habits of habitual spending, find a position that kind of helped me there. And three is just, like I said, keep me busy, but not overly busy because again, I recognize at my age that I really needed to slow down and throttle back a little bit on how I was operating leading up to my retirement.

16:38 So yeah, it was a balance in trying to find the right position for me so that I knew. And I think I found it. Unfortunately, like I said, my medical condition kind of took me away from it, but I did find the fine balance of finding a position that was not as stressful, not as supervisory engaging, but also not into the weeds of the technicalities. But again, unfortunately my medical condition

17:05 Diagnosis: Terminal Stage 4 Mesothelioma

17:07 kind of took me away from that. How long after your official retirement did you get your diagnosis? And please share your diagnosis. I don't want to mispronounce the terms. I don't want to get your story wrong. How long after your retirement, please? after you retired, did you start to feel these symptoms and this diagnosis, if you could share with us? Yeah, for sure. And I'm happy to share everything. And the reason why I went public with my condition is because I want to share as much information to try to prevent somebody from going down the path that I went down. So like I said, I retired back in December 2023, immediately started working in the civilian workforce in January 2024. And then at the end of May, I just started

17:59 suffering from symptoms of not being able to breathe, feeling full all the time. And I thought it was a function of my diet, because I'm lactose intolerant. And please, if I'm disclosing too much, I'm sure you'll edit this somehow. No, I love this. We keep it raw and real. But as you know, you know, I've been, I try to keep myself physically active. And running was a thing for me, it kind of helped me de-stress. So I noticed my running mileage and my cardiovascular was suffering and I couldn't, I couldn't, it was, I was finding it difficult to run five miles that I throttled back and it was difficult to run three miles and it was difficult to run one mile. And then just this one day in the end of

18:48 May, I was like, you know what, I'm going to push myself and ended up running as fast as I can running one mile. And because of that, that night, I just couldn't breathe. And it just felt like this heavy weight on my chest. I went to the emergency room and they determined that I had accumulated fluid in my lung cavity, in my right lung cavity. Did a CT scan and determined that I was accumulating fluid in my abdomen. Hence why I was feeling full. Given more tests, it took about a whole month of tests and a biopsy. Mid-July, July 15th, is when I was officially diagnosed with terminal stage four mesothelioma, metastatic mesothelioma. So I had mesothelioma on my right

19:35 lung, in my abdomen and on my left quadricep. The left quadricep is a little nuanced, but mainly mesothelioma is attack of the mesothelioma cells, which is a lining of certain organs. So my, it's in my right lung. It's not on my lung itself, but it's in the cavity of my right lung. So that's where the cancer is at. And it's in the peritoneal in my abdomen. So I suffer from, from those two bicarbity mesothelioma. And like you said, I retired December 23 and I got diagnosed July of 24 with a prognosis of 18 months. And every effort I'm doing now is just, is just trying to extend it, to push that prognosis, to try to prove my oncology team that they were wrong with giving me 18 months.

20:26 So. I'm in the mid 20's and so mainly the symptoms I'm suffering from is, is breathing, taking a deep breath. It's just kind of constricted in my lungs. And I was, I was suffering from ascites accumulation, which is fluid accumulation of my abdomen, which was to be, which I get drain every 7-10 days called parasensices but surprisingly for the past 7 weeks now, I haven't been drained. Which I get drained every 7-10 days called the parasensis. is awesome which is a good sign and my doctors asked me what did i do what have i been doing differently and i said seven weeks ago is when i started vigorously hitting the gym again weightlifting and and walking three miles a day um so they're like well it seems like something's

21:18 working so i attest to to getting back to the gym and working out and i'm coming up on my eighth week back to the gym and i was really happy to be able to run a mile today um again a mile and a quarter actually today granted it wasn't all together it was broken up into little spurts because i couldn't breathe right it's it's the same sensation as if you're working out in in a high elevation the inability i was just going to ask you that when we first moved to wyoming and we were trying to exercise at that 6 000 feet so it feels like that yeah exactly like it's just that inability to take to get your to catch your breath or or working or yeah it's equivalent to working out in a high altitude location um is what i can kind of uh attest it to

22:07 and then other than that um you know i just have medical procedures here and there and medical appointments uh but yeah my official diagnosis of stage four mesothelioma was july of last year uh and since then for the past six months it's just a matter of uh tests and and trying to find clinical trials for me to get into to postpone the inevitable which i know is coming and i've accepted i accepted that and it's just a matter of not thinking about it because i can't do anything about it at this point so there's no need for me to do all on that but um i like to share my story because i want to prevent somebody else from from suffering or ending up going down the path i did

22:57 the the symptoms that i experienced back in may that led to my diagnosis were the same symptoms that i presented to military doctors several years ago that i couldn't breathe you know i had a hard time breathing i thought somebody was sitting on my chest and me being so naive at the time just believed everything that the military doctors would say oh it's just stress it's just anxiety let me give you this set of pills let me prescribe you this it's work related because of your so you just need to to relax and calm down and don't don't take on so much more stress you know i believe them right there there was nothing else that i can say or do and like question their their

23:41 their knowledge they're these they're the sneeze um but i believe them but the reason why i bring that up is because i want people to not blindly follow what people tell them that they need to be more proactive to prevent from being in a situation like i am today so anytime and every time i meet i talk with somebody whether we reconnect from the past you know i'm always saying hey please do me a favor get yourself screen get yourself checked out if you're suffering from any ailments or sickness or illnesses you know don't just blindly follow what the doctors say go get a second opinion or see an expert and make sure that they thoroughly vet that issue or concern because if i i firmly believe if i pulled that thread if i did more digging if i

24:31 blindly followed and sought a second opinion i probably could have caught my condition early on that would not have led me to be in the terminal condition that i am today um but like i said earlier i can't live in the past i can't change anything in the past and i just got to deal with the cards that i've dealt with today and move forward and and live the rest of the life that i can as as much as i can but that's the reason why i like to share my story that's the reason why i like to talk to people is hopefully to get some of that information out there and i hope that you'll be able to think about their own condition and their own health and be proactive versus

25:08 reactive uh to prevent the condition or whatever condition or diagnosis that they may potentially fall victim to you having three sons can you walk us through having to break that news to your

25:25 Breaking the News to His Three Sons

25:25 to your kids yeah gets me every time how old are your boys what are the what are their ages right now so let's see they're 19 17 and 14. so i do recall that was probably so so i knew early on once i had initial issues back in may that i had something that was bad and i kind of held it away from them because i didn't want them to to worry and i i i elected talking with their mom i elected that i was not gonna tell them until i had an official diagnosis and and jen uh as you remember jen and their mom jen was on with that and she she was supportive of my decision um and of course i kept her in the loop as the mother of my children um she she supported the decision to hold uh notifying her kids until

26:37 i was officially diagnosed so the entire time until i was diagnosed i knew something was wrong i suspected it was cancer but i didn't want to disclose it to them until i was officially diagnosed um so i was diagnosed and that was probably one of the hardest conversations i've ever had and and as you know as as leaders of organizations we're kind of prepared to to hold those kinds of conversations with people and how to deliver you know negative news bad news or struggles a organization goes through um but this was really hard because it really hit home and it was a personal thing not not that not that you know there's no personal bad news that we would that that that deals with the organization

27:28 but just this one was just a lot different and and mike that was probably one of the toughest conversations i've ever had um and it still gets me every time but but it was hard and i i told them exactly what my diagnosis was and just the look on their face was just hard it was hard and it caught i don't want to say it caught them by surprise because they two knew that something was going on because dad was there go to medical appointments here and there so they kind of suspected something was there but they didn't realize that it was a terminal condition um actually to this day i still don't i still suspect that they don't really have a full grasp of my severity of my condition but you know i told

28:24 them the news and i told them the the the prognosis uh and i told them what was gonna uh happen between then and now or then in the end and how it's gonna impact them and my ability to take care of them um because i needed to focus how it was going to impact them on a day-to-day basis you know i told them i may not be able to pick you up i may not be able to attend whatever band sporting event because i can't be out with the public um so so they so i kind of related to them and how it impacted them um but and i decided to keep it simple as much as possible and let them um ask the questions whenever they they um are comfortable to ask the questions the only thing i ask them is two things

29:21 is one is don't go searching on the internet what my condition is because not everything in the internet is true and then the second thing is i told them and i re reassured them that my condition is not contagious or hereditary it's a function of the environment that i was exposed to and that it's not something that they need to worry about at this point in their lives um so those are two of the main points that i that i kind of highlighted to them um so that they know it was uh you know isolated to me so that they didn't feel any any weirdness about my condition um but today you know every time they come home like how are you how is your how how do you feel today how was your appointment uh they're kind of

30:07 in that manner in regards to what my appointments entail what procedures happened um but other than that um they try to keep it like a day-to-day function normal day-to-day like school and let's go play pool or something um but i still suspect that they they don't understand the full gravity of the severity of my condition and i think it will hit them once i start physically showing the gravity of my condition because right now i try to keep it light-hearted i try to be a joke with them they see me going to the gym so they kind of it doesn't really they don't it doesn't really my condition doesn't really show an impact to to their day-to-day um but i think

30:53 once that starts happening i think that's going to start um probably hitting them a little bit more how has your relationship been with the boys since revealing the diagnosis i would imagine that you're you're much closer how is that relationship yeah i mean like i said uh i've been away from them for two and a half years and when i decided to come back home you know i got slapped with this condition they were happy for me to come back home um i think in a way our relationship is a little bit more uh i wouldn't say strained but different because the whole reason why i retired is to hang out with them and to be with them more but then now my condition kind of limits my ability to to do the things that we would i anticipated doing with

31:46 them and they're like oh my god i'm just going to be a little bit more active and you know i can't go run i can't over exert myself physically or partake in any sporting uh exercise that they want to partake on because physically i can't because i can't breathe um so i think they recognize that i have some physical limitations um but other than that i mean it's it seems like uh they're not they're not more sappy they're not more close they're never been like that to begin

32:10 Fighting the Odds and Finding Hope

32:14 with um limitation because of my condition. My oldest, he's 19 now and going to college, self-sustaining. You know, he's got a girlfriend, so his priorities are kind of morphed over. The younger ones are more closer to me because they come to my house, they stay at my house. So the two younger ones that are high school and middle school are more closer with me and are more in tune with my condition, while my oldest is more in tune with his love life, which is typical. And I don't hold that against him because I remember being a 19-year-old myself. So I don't hold that against him in any opportunity that he wants to come by and stop by the house. He's more than welcome to,

33:02 and at that point he catches up and he asks me the questions that his younger brothers typically ask me on a day-to-day basis. But I think I really, I wouldn't say our relationship is tighter. It's always been tight, but my kids are not as sappy as others would think they would be or or would think that they would be because of my conditions, because they were never like that to begin with. I lost another friend a couple years ago to cancer, an Air Force guy as well. I don't think you ever met Jeff. Jeff and I grew up together, and he was an Air Force Academy football player and all this stuff. But he ended up getting testicular cancer, and then it moved into his

33:49 lungs, and he fought a battle for a long, a long time. And when he knew that he was going to be the first to go to a Technology Regardless, he was an Air Force guy. So he knew he was terminal. He asked me to start sharing stories over video to share with his boys, so when they were older and more understanding and a little more mature, he asked me to share some stories from his childhood to share with his kids. Are you doing anything like that? Are you writing anything down or documenting anything to be like, Hey, you know, eventually you're going to be this age and you're going to, you're gonna want to get married or you're gonna want to get a job or you're gonna want to do this

34:28 stuff all right are you are you doing anything like that for the kids you know I thought about that and and I what kind of deterred me from doing that is and this is my old mindset right is is if I started doing that I've accepted the fact that I've established my nth mark at this point today I don't want to think that way I think I still have a need personally I feel like I still have a big fight to fight to be able to push this prognosis further so I don't feel I need to do that at this point because I can still provide the guidance and the mentoring that I can with my kids today I think once I know and I start feeling that my prognosis is getting worse I think I'm

35:19 going to start doing that because I know my time at that point is going to be very limited that I may not get to a certain time in their lives in their life that I may want to record some words of wisdoms or lessons learned that I encountered in my upbringing to share with them but I did really think about that because my son for Father's Day he gave me a book and I'm assuming you probably saw this but it tells it's it's a book essentially to jot down you know I ask questions you know what was your favorite color or when did you graduate it just talks about all those questions for me to write it down so that he can read it at some point in the future when he gave me that for Father's Day last year that's that's what got me

36:01 thinking you know would I want to start recording myself but then again like I said I didn't want to do that because at that point I'm kind of limiting or establishing in my mind that my time is coming up soon which I didn't want to start doing that yeah so my apologies if my questions come across as insensitive no no I'm sorry I was just I was just curious these were the types of things no don't apologize

38:20 The Power of Reconnection and Mental Health

38:28 exactly um and once again I don't mean to come across insensitive but when you called me in in that May June time frame and you know you were sharing your your diagnosis it caused a lot of self-reflection with me as well and I did everything you told me to do I went and got checked I got a chest x-ray I got my blood work so thank you so much for for that advice at the same time for that 48 to 72 hours while I was waiting to hear about you know the blood work and some of the some of the things coming back I told Heather I said look if this stuff comes back and it says that I have something similar to Mike or or I have something else I said I personally still

39:27 wouldn't change anything I I've met I would have never met my wife I would have never had my kids if we weren't in Cheyenne Wyoming I would have never had my kids if we weren't in Cheyenne Wyoming right I would have never done all the crazy stupid stuff that we did if I hadn't chose had chosen this path and I don't mean that to be insensitive I'm I just if somebody told me tomorrow that that I'm terminal I know that I I did the job the career that was that was meant for me and I just I I hope that no matter what you feel in real life you're not going to be insensitive to me I'm not going to realize how much of a difference you've made you've been such an impact in my life I mean my

40:15 goodness your picture is upstairs from pilot training graduation here here is one of my buddies from missile training that has nothing to do with this this world that I'm in now and shows up we're just part of the yeah we're just part of a group that is it's just um uh we're serving something greater than ourselves and yeah I just I just I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I just I'm so thankful of the decisions that I've made with my life and and being part of your life and so I'm sure there's tons of things that you second guess all the time but I hope that you realize how much of an impact

41:02 you were in my life even though I was on the side of the road throwing up because you gave me all those drinks dude I still have that picture too yeah thank you yeah it was payback remember that because you got me I haven't seen Vince forever either he is such a evil person who he Vince Montana oh Vince yeah yeah he's been texting me uh quite often and and it was it was like you know with my diagnosis it it was a blessing in disguise because it allowed me to reconnect with people who who who we've drifted away from each other and it's to no fault to anyone you know because it's just life and and it's just our military career right you know we establish relationships and then we're young from each other and then we're

41:51 when we're given opportunities to reconnect it's like we never left right um but but my diagnosis allowed me when I went pro when I went public with it it allowed me to reconnect with a lot of people and when reconnecting with people helped me a lot helped me process what was going on with me helping me with my mental my mental health because it allowed me to focus on something else versus what was happening with me you know yeah we when I was reconnecting with people yeah they you know we talked a little bit about me and my prognosis but we quickly transitioned to hey how have you been what's going on in your life what have you been up to and the preponderance of the

42:35 conversation was more focused on that versus what was going on with me and what that did to me it was I don't even think the person even recognized it but it did me so good in regards to my mental health right because it allowed me to focus on something else other than the issues that I was going with because I really suffered my mental health really did suffer when I got diagnosed and anxiety really got the best of me which I was really medicated for that stuff but reconnecting with people and just talking and catching up with people really really helped me a lot and and I'm so thankful that there were so many people that reached out and I got to talk to people you know and in the prayers that people were doing it's I like to say

43:20 Reflecting on Life Choices and Gratitude

43:27 the prayers are working because things are happening which I can't explain and the doctors can't explain but something is happening and and something's working and like I said uh reached the I know I'm kind of a scatterbrain and I think I probably attested to chemo but um but yeah what I was trying to get at is is reconnecting with people definitely helped me um people helped me more than they realized when they were when we they were called and I was able to share my story with them and catch up with them but yeah talking with you and doing this it helps me more than than you really think for sure well I I've been looking forward to it and unfortunately I I know that you're very busy with family and other

44:14 engagements and I don't ever want to get in the way of that because you said you're getting ready to go to California to see your your family is that right yeah I I'm I'm at a point with my my treatment plan that I can um in between my my infusions I can I can go and see my parents because my parents are our age during the mid to upper 80s now and and talking to them one night just opened my eyes in their condition because I've been so focused in my condition it opened my eyes on their physical health and and it just said I just like I need to go I need to go to California here not this weekend but the following weekend just to spend the weekend with

44:56 them um so what's their proximity what's their proximity to the wildfires um they are uh just south of the Altadena fire southeast I should say my brother is impacted by the Altadena fire um they were evacuated uh when the evacuation notice came out but but now they're back in their house and I think they're gonna try to ride out the next round of Santa Ana wins this week but for the most part other than my brother the rest of my family who are in Southern California are not as impacted my parents are are lived in the fire zone um I know that for a fact because their their fire insurance got terminated a year ago because of the zone that they lived in so we definitely

45:42 rushed to get them coverage because we do recognize that they live in the fire zone when I actually spoke to my mom was it this morning or either this morning or yesterday and I asked her what the the conditions are she said as of right now it's good um but it's always in the back of their mind or what's going to happen if we want to kick in but yeah what's happening in California is crazy I'm sure flying in I'll probably see the issues there yeah I I was just thinking about your own personal health if the if the air is has a lot of particulates in it I I didn't know if somebody who's you know sensitive no that's that's a good point I mean to be honest I didn't even think about that but but I do plan on wearing a mask

46:26 when I'm flying which is um something that I should probably do I didn't do last time but I I will do it this time for sure especially if I'm in California with a particular matters you're right that's a good point and to be honest I didn't even think about that so thanks for bringing that up yeah just that's all I mean my time in Djibouti when I was deployed to Djibouti for five months they changed out the air conditioning unit in our tent and the very next day the air conditioning unit was black and I thought wow we're breathing in a lot of really really bad stuff here and that's because the jubutions burn tires television sets they burn everything so I was just thinking with with how susceptible you are to air quality it was just I

47:07 was just thinking about that but of course I mean your family with all the insurance companies I mean it's just unaffordable I mean yeah my goodness this is going to be such an unbelievably expensive yep um recovery project it's so it's so sad my my niece you probably don't remember as she was there for our our missile graduation uh she lives in it it's called like Edgewood she lives just about 20 minutes north of Santa Monica she's still out of her house I don't know if it's still standing but she's in a very susceptible area lost a lot of homes near her her as well it's very sad yeah it's a it's a bad situation out there but um yeah and hopefully people will

47:53 bounce back and hopefully they won't be put through the ringer with all these insurance issues going on right now yeah and I'm just tired of all the rhetoric of blaming people about why these fires happen and it's just like guys can we just focus on actually helping people that are in need rather than trying to blame one party or another yeah politicizing the situation definitely definitely not yeah there's there's no help to it so yeah you mentioned you mentioned your parents

48:20 Family Updates and California Wildfires

48:22 getting up there in age are are they going to stay in California I I guess the majority of your your family is in Southern California I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know California so everybody's there for the long haul they are and unfortunately that's what they used to that's what they know and that's the only thing that they are familiar with how many attempts I've talked to them about getting out of California but they're they're they're that's that's all they know right the cost of living there is so high but that's all they know spending spending so much money for a gad on the milk to them that's normal right you know as much as I try

48:56 to portray to them that the cost of living is so much cheaper elsewhere again it's subjective and that's that's all they know but my sister is moving out of California and going to Texas where my older brother lives so as but she's always she's always had the pulse on the economics of California the politics of California how crazy it's getting so she's definitely uh the one that's leaving there but the rest of my other families I got three other siblings that are there and my parents that's all they know and that's they've accepted it and they they are going to live for it for a question for you so you said you were uh deployed to Djibouti uh for five months do you

49:40 know that Djibouti is one of the locations for the pact act yes I I signed all that that paperwork and when I left when I left to the deployment part of the out processing was a list of all of the chemicals you were exposed to and it wasn't so much because because the base I mean the base had water treatment facilities the base itself was fine but where we were located uh the jibushin dump if you will and how they got rid of things it all that wind would just blow right on to our facility and I think about all the contractors that have worked there for years because they they pay a really good salary so let's let's say for example a driver somebody that's driving you

50:20 to and from the tents to the airplanes they're they're getting a couple hundred thousand dollars I mean and so it's where else can you be essentially a bus driver and make two hundred thousand dollars but at the same time if you're there for three or four years and you're breathing all this stuff in I'm concerned about those contractors that are there for those long periods of time oh yeah no kidding but in regards to yourself though that's all in your records so that's all in your so at some point in the future God forbidding if something was to happen related to any exposure it's in your records yeah yeah it is in my records um I wanted to ask a couple things about the the nuclear world yeah um you

50:59 know having served in such a critical role it's kind of the the silent the silent watch nobody really knows that that it's out there I I was showing folks some missile holes and missile silos and all that stuff on Google Maps I was like no this stuff is this stuff is out there how did you you know as a as a as a father with with kids and all the things that they taught us and the things that we learned behind closed doors that's an that's an immense responsibility so how did you how did you balance that do you just can you just flip a switch or do you bring that home with you because um I bring it home with me quite a bit I'm just curious what it was like to be part of that nuclear

51:45 deterrence well as you know uh being um in that world for early on your career a lot of this stuff was very classified right and as you know it's not glamorous it's not highly advertised it's not highly talked about um so I was able to to compartmentalize what I did on a day-to-day basis came home uh yeah the family knew i came home from alert because of the stink that i would bring back from the cat the capsule funk as you recall what that was um but in regards to my actual job what i did down there you know that it was really wasn't really talked about because i was able to just shut it down and not even brought it home and that's partly a function of my personal philosophy

52:35 is because i never wanted to bring work home to begin with one because i didn't want to burden and or bring the stressors of work to the home environment um i didn't want to mix the two worlds together was was jen at that time ever um intrigued at what i did i was able to impart what we did to her at a very very high level um as you know maybe heather back in the day was also knew what he did and probably kept it to a very high level um but uh for the most part i was able to separate that um just so that i can not discourage her from doing what she did close any of the the classified information um did i struggle from doing that i don't think so i think it's just from my my personal mindset of not bringing work home i enjoyed living off base

53:20 Lessons Learned and Final Thoughts

53:24 because i was able to kind of physically get military operations out when i would leave the gates you know seeing it in my rearview mirror i'm leaving base changing my mindset i remember when one time when i was working at 20th at fe i lived in fort collins and people were like why the hell would you live in fort collins i was like well you know what kind of helped me because it helped me prepare in the morning for my drive back to cheyenne from fort collins to kind of prepare myself for the day and on the back end it kind of helped me decompress so that i am not thinking or or bringing my work back home right so personally i think i did a good job of kind of like i said compartmentalizing work

54:10 and not mixing the two environments together now is that the right thing i don't know would would my kids and jen at the time would have wanted more uh knowledge as far as what i was doing i don't know and i didn't get that hint from them maybe i maybe they did give me a hint i don't know um but but just given the classified nation uh nature of my job back in the missile world um i never even discussed missiles even when i came back for a second tour back in 2015 or 20 17. uh and i didn't really talk about work as far as missile work at that time i was more in the supervisory position uh yeah of course that stuff was kind of talking oh yeah airman so-and-so

54:56 did this lieutenant so-and-so did this and we had to deal with that and spend hours doing that but in regards to actually pulling alerts that was definitely something that was not talked about um because i think they did understand that it was a classified mission um so so there were no questions my boys nor jen at the time uh posed towards me um but but if i if i may talking about the nuclear mission like i said not a lot of people know much about it and as you know it's not glamorous it's more like groundhog day every single day and the issues that we were faced with from a leadership perspective was you know empowering those young operators and maintainers and making them understand their piece of the pie

55:42 and the big in the big scheme of things so that they have a kind of appreciation of what they do um i recognized that when i was back there a second time back in 2015 and 17 because i was more in the chief and the do position so i was able to recognize that there was a lack of understanding of the importance of what they do um so so that was a struggle from a leadership perspective you know how do you how do you make your operators do that and um i think um you know i think it's it's it's a little bit different from what we're used to doing in the past and you know it's not it's not it's not fancy it's not talked about a lot you know it was it was a constant struggle for us and and how we went about doing that was

56:28 kind of giving them the backstory of what they do and and and where their role is and why their role is important because at this point in my career i've already had a combatant command time at us track comp so i understand the reason or or why it's important to have whatever missile is on the so i was able to convey to them like hey this is why you do this targeting this is why how often you do this targeting this is the reason why is because it's a shuffle game of the targets that we held in different priorities here's a reason why that it's important for you to go chase that missile and put it back on alert because it's on a certain priority right so so giving them that

57:10 that that story behind uh the mission kind of helps them understand uh the importance of their job the second piece of the struggle was the empowerment as you know and as you probably recall there was a lot of micromanagement in that in that job right there was there was ridiculous ttps ridiculous checklist steps that people were doing but back in this in 2015 as a result of the scandal that happened in our community you know finally the community recognized that leadership is imposing all these restrictions onto the operations from behind the desk you know why don't you go out there and actually do the mission and see the impacts of your restrictions oh yeah like the drive and driving 65 and a 75 and all that

57:59 nonsense yeah all that nonsense all that ridiculousness all those stupid phone calls that people would have to do for approval you know when the leadership was starting to go out there it's amazing how things are starting to change right oh why are you doing this i i recall one of them went out when i went on there's like why the hell am i having to call so-and-so to do this that's my decision out here in the field not going to do that let's take that out of the checklist so it was just stupid creepish stuff like that that kind of made the operators and the maintainers not feel empowered to do their job so it was our job to make sure we got rid of all those ridiculousness

58:39 nuances to the mission so that people actually feel like they can make the decision out there that was back in 15 and 17. i don't know how it is today i haven't been back to the field since 17. but i know i know empowerment and appreciation for the job was a struggle from a leadership aspect to let people feel that they are empowered to do their job and that they have a better understanding appreciation of the mission and the empowerment piece again just to close the loop on that is just you know remove the the nuances and the ridiculousness so that so that the young lieutenant who we've charged to be responsible for those nuclear assets can make the decisions if we can give them the key

59:23 missiles why can't we give them the decision to make the right decision right that that's where i was going to ask you if the culture is improved because i i still to this day have nightmares from my time in the miss in the missile community not not because of the mission but because of the culture i mean i i have nightmares about the time i had to stand up there in front of the group commander because i failed the check ride i have nightmares about um studying the test we always just have to take and so i share a lot of stories with with guys and gals in the c17 community and some of the other communities i've been with i'm like you think this sucks let me

1:00:05 tell you some missile stories you drive out you know three and a half hours to this place you don't get per diem you don't get any money you have to bring your own food you have to do your so you know people are complaining about well i don't want to fly there because per diem's only forty dollars a day and i'd rather fly here i'm like oh my gosh let me slap you when we land because we suffered like you could possibly not imagine in the missile community but at the same time it developed a friendship of all of us that is unbreakable because we embrace together yeah we all suffer together but my god i remember i'd had multiple hundreds in a row or something and

1:00:50 i forget the do's name he's like nobody can get that many hundreds in a row i think you're cheating during the test so he sat next to me during the test i got 100 on the test he's like okay you're you're good i sat next to you i'm like this is this is the level of trust we have you're gonna come take a test with me sit next to me and if i don't get a hundred well then that's because i've been cheating all this time or if i do get a hundred then you trust me so i'm thank goodness you guys are empowering your your young folks to be out there and and make responsible decisions because well unfortunately that's the function of the toxic leadership right that that we that we lived

1:01:32 that we grew up under right and and you can call me you know ass backwards but that type of leadership kind of mentored me on how not to be exactly you know in in you know there's there's there's a there's a the infamous you know elite former leader that we know called crazy jack you know he he believe that if you want to but i don't care he he um yeah he was like the epitome of how not to be for me right and there's unfortunately there were so many of those types of leaders in that career in my career field that that i held in regard to not to be in that type of leader um and and unfortunately it's just those are the types of leaders that my community continue to progress and it was just i was just very dumbfounded how that

1:02:31 mentality is rewarded at the at the expense of of the people right makes you feel like you cheated because you had 100 that's yeah unfortunately i can't speak to how the community is today i mean i know as you recall the scandal caused a lot of changes which caused the pendulum to go to one side i don't know where they're at in that piece i've heard of rumors um but you know i don't want to spread rumors or talk about women because rumors are rumors but i can only hope that that the current leaders out there are taking care of the people because as you know taking care of the people results in the mission being taken care of um and unfortunately i hear

1:03:17 that there's some struggles out there but but yeah it's but it only made us better leaders today right i was going to say good for you because i i i am the same mindset of i saw what bad leadership was and so i knew that's not the way i want to treat people and so i i looked at it as lessons learned unfortunately i had to experience them but yeah i mean that's that's the way i went with it and the the leader that you mentioned earlier when i gave my last alert speech and saying thank you so much i'm going to pilot training i've been you know dreaming about this since day one of joining the air force and i didn't say anything negative about the missile community i said nothing but kind things

1:04:01 and that person stood up and he's like you know what a great speech you know go forth and conquer mike i'm so proud of you and then a week later when i'm doing my out processing to leave fu warren and go off to pilot training you have to have your your out brief and i go into his office for the out brief and he's like so you know i see that you're you're getting out early and you're gonna palace chase well what's what are you gonna do next i was like are you kidding me i just gave a speech a week and a half ago that you were commending in front of people getting ready to go out on alert and you don't that just shows you how in disingenuous everything you said you have no idea where i'm going next and i just gave a speech about it a

1:04:48 week and a half ago that's crazy but then i'm not surprised coming from that individual either hey so i don't think i've ever told you this but but you transitioning from missiles to pilot c-17 oh no you were uh you were um uh i went straight to c-17 yeah and then i did rpas for years yeah so i did c-17s for five years rpas for five years then came here in the capital hill capital hill area for a few years and then back to the c-17 for five years yeah but you transitioning out of missiles was always in the back of my mind and i don't think i've ever told you this but being a deal back when i was at 17 or 15 15-17 and in command when people would express

1:05:36 their desire of doing something else other than missiles you know i can sense the fear when they would come talk to me i was like don't don't be fearful of that because missiles is not for everybody you know and if you want to do something else you know by all means let me support you and let me help you get to that because all i can vision was you and how successful you were in that other world right missiles may not have been for you but then again missiles wasn't your desire you wanted to be a pilot right and fortunately the stars lined up for that to happen back in the day in the toxic environment for you and so it was such a graduated-like career changes

1:06:23 you know and that was the second thing that i would say for me was that some of the industry was kind of careful about how they axes days or how they read large business and they would draw this information on esteem you guys um are in this audience now and i admit it to yourself since the first time i knew &re Leadership asked me this at you know, I'm here. Let me help you. Let me help you get to what you want to do. You know, I appreciate you wearing the uniform. It may not be in my career field, but let me help you get to where you want to be so that you can enjoy life and that you can be a productive individual in our military, right? Because the last thing I'd want you to do is to be miserable

1:06:59 being in doing the job that you did not want to do. Granted, some people like myself probably accepted that and just tried to make the best out of something. But if this is not for you, let me help you get to wherever it is. With the caveat that the grass may not be greener on the other side. But again, I want you to figure that out, right? So let me help you get there. But yeah, you are always in the back of my mind every time somebody expressed their desire to do something else. Let me help you get there. I've had multiple people come into my office. Sir, it's not you. I just I want to go do something different. And I tell them the same thing you just said. Hey, as long as you're

1:07:43 still comfortable with what you're doing, I'm going to help you get there. And I'm going to help you cross train into anything you want to do. The C-17 mission, it's hard. There's a lot of 24 hour days where you're not getting you're not sleeping. And so people think of it as I'm flying this sexy, cool airplane. I go to all these cool places like, yeah, but sleep deprivation is a real thing. And it's not for everybody. And so I've I've I've helped people move on to different career fields because of how difficult the mission can be. Yeah. And you have. Yeah. Like you said, the grass isn't greener. I'm sorry. But you haven't gone. Through that process, you know, you can speak to that, you know, having going through the entire

1:08:18 process of doing it. So that's great. That's great for sure. Yeah, I was when I was flying the RPA mission, it was on night shift. There would be people that were just miserable. I mean, drinking coffee, you know, staying awake and all. And I did really feel bad for him. But they kept complaining, well, man, once I get out of this, once I get out of this RPA mission, I'm going to be flying this airplane or that airplane is going to be so great. And so what I would do is as the as the operation supervisor, I'd be like, all right, guys, it's it's four o'clock in the morning. How do you feel right now? Oh, man, I'm so tired. I said, this isn't even touching what it's like to be on a 24 hour mission where you don't sleep. This this is

1:09:03 nothing. So when you think that your next airplane you're going to is just going to be amazing and you're going to look back at this and think this was a horrible mission and experience, like, oh, my gosh, I'm so tired. I'm so tired. It was a horrible mission. I'm so tired. I'm so tired. I'm so tired. I'm so tired. You're right. You're right. It is hard. Everywhere you go, it's hard. So don't think just because you're leaving the missile community that you're going to go to something great. It's it's it's all it's all work and it's all rewarding. And you just got to find your place. And good for you for sharing where the nuclear community fits into the bigger piece of

1:09:44 the puzzle. I share a story all the time about how there's 50 steps to the kinetic chain. So everybody thinks the fighter pilots, the cool guy, and he gets to shoot the missile and do all these crazy things. Well, there's actually 50 steps in the logistical chain to make that kinetic strike actually happen. And so we really talk about the folks that, you know, the intel officers, the maintenance officers, the logistics officers. I mean, I say officers, but you know what I mean? Everybody within that chain, it takes everybody. So I've had pilots in my office. I'm like, look, man, you are not special. You were fortunate enough to be for God to give you the ability to pass a flight class one physical.

1:10:30 A lot of people are colorblind. A lot of people have certain things that prevent them from going to pilot training. So you are blessed with things that do not make you any better. I can teach anybody. How to fly an airplane. An airplane is just like driving a car. There's a few more switches. There's a few more steps, but it's just like driving a car. We can teach anybody how to do that. So think about that next time when somebody is out there helping you refuel your airplane or somebody is helping you offload or unload bags or something. That person is no less important to this mission. So do not treat anybody with disrespect just because they're not a pilot.

1:11:11 Oh, my. It drives me crazy. You know, that's funny you say that because as you know, I was a schoolhouse commander and I had a lot of time with the young operators and the young maintainers. And one of the things that I constantly imparted to them is, you know, outside of their job, right? It doesn't matter what my rank is. As long as you treat somebody with dignity and respect, you'll get dignity and respect back. You treat others how you want to be treated. You know, if just because I'm a boss at the time I was a lieutenant colonel, that doesn't mean I'm higher than anyone else. Yeah, I am on the rank, but I'm still a person and it does not give me the right to treat you disrespectfully.

1:11:56 Right. And it's just mind blowing to me how somebody can think that one is, lack for better words, almighty, that they're more important than other people. When you just like you said, there's numerous people that contribute. To that one mission. And if you take one out, it's like the Jenga piece, you know, the entire thing can fall apart and they won't be successful. And that's one of the things that we kind of imparted to the young maintainers and operators is that you have a piece in this in providing peace globally. We always throw out the nuclear deterrent mission and that's the buzzword. But do you really know what that means and how that is actually executed?

1:12:42 You know, we give them that second and third order background. We give them that information as opposed to just say, yeah, nuclear deterrence. You allow other people to operate in AORs because of your ability to launch missiles in minutes time. That's that's that's that blanket statement is so dated and it just tells people that they're not really important at all. And again, I'm sorry to take your your point there. But when you said that just treating people with with dignity and respect is really huge in my book. And when it got to the point of somebody treating somebody with disrespect and that's where you call the knock it off piece and say, hey, listen, buddy, what's going on?

1:13:24 There's something wrong that's causing you to talk to somebody in that manner. What's going on? Right. And then at that point, just dig into that individual. Why try to help them out so that they cannot be. But that was just one of the philosophies that I that I held myself to. I'm sure you did the same thing. Yeah, that's that's why I love this job so much, because it gives me a chance to mentor and and shape our future generations that are going to replace us. And so every time I have an opportunity, Heather's always like, oh, here he goes again on his recruiting speech. Like, no, no, no. I said this changed my life. This provided direction in my life because I was just a massive troublemaker

1:14:04 and had a chip on my shoulder and I was a pain in the ass. And especially in the missile community, I was a pain in the ass. I was unhappy. I was, you know, you name it. And so, yeah, if I hadn't gotten out and done something different, you know, in the flying community, it would have been I would have punched. Yeah. And you can tell if you didn't do missiles, you guys wouldn't have met. Yeah, if we wouldn't have met, it wouldn't it wouldn't have allowed me to know what embracing the suck really means. Yeah. And yeah. So it takes a special level of grit to make it to make it through there. And so, yeah. And it gave you a good perspective to it. And it sounds like you were able to take it

1:14:51 and you got perspective moving on into your other career field to be absolutely people like, hey, don't be a whiny little you know what? Because here other people have it worse in other locations. Yeah, absolutely. And so I truly feel that everything happens for a reason. And that was the that was the precursor. That was the test to see if I could make it in that in that next career field. Because let me tell you, if I was a brand new second lieutenant and I showed up at pilot training, I absolutely would not have made it completely. I would not have made it. I needed that kick in the nuts. That old patch. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Morale improved.

1:15:30 Yeah, whatever. That's getting kicked in the junk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. So, so true. And so many just amazing memories and friendships from that time. Skiing and mountain biking and just enjoying Wyoming. Wyoming is an amazing place if you have a job that you like. Well, it's funny you say that, because I saw that a lot, too, at the schoolhouse. And when people are like, oh, man, I'm going to Montana, Montana, it's going to be so cold. I was like, listen, you don't have that mindset, right? Don't think of it. Don't don't let your mind automatically go to the negative. You know, it's going to be negative if you had that mindset, have a positive attitude, look at the positive things that that location has for you.

1:16:18 You know, I I pulled my second crew was in Montana before that, before I was sent to Montana. I told myself I wasn't going to go get sent north of F.E. Warren. And fortunately, the Air Force decided to send me to Montana because of the scandal. And I was so thankful that it did that because to this day, my kids still talk about Montana and how beautiful that state is. It truly is God's country. They talk about at the time we lived on base. They talk they still talk about the neighborhood and the kids playing in the street and they still remember my neighbors. I see who I've talked to. I ran to a couple of times a couple of months ago. I'm like, oh, yeah, you guys,

1:16:59 you're the Amazon kids are out in the street all the time. You know, you know, it was it was a beautiful place to be in. And it's just that mindset. Don't let your mind get to the negative. Think about the goodness of what's going to happen, you know, because if you start thinking negative, you're going to think you're going to have you can be miserable the entire time, you know, get out there, enjoy what the what the state can offer you and what outdoor recreation can provide for you. You know, it's more on you to to change that mindset, to take advantage of what the amenities are in front of you. And if you take advantage of it, you'll have a different mental attitude

1:17:39 which will impact your ability to do the job, which would make the mission better. But my mom figure exactly every time I would drive home from Cheyenne, Wyoming, back to the Seattle area, I would go to the Montana route. And it's just it's so beautiful. Yeah. It's absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. So you guys out of the three locations, that one has a lot of of spectacular beauty. Yeah. Unfortunately, it's the biggest missile field, too. So it's a three hour drive to all of them, to the majority, to a big number of them. But yeah, but it's still again, I told myself once the kids are old enough and hopefully I'll make it to this point, but once the kids are out in college,

1:18:24 I'm going to move out of them. I'm going to move out of Nebraska because there's nothing for me here in Montana, because I'm so fortunate that the airport brought me there because I fell in love with that state, my family who visited me there a couple of times and loved the state. We're actually thinking of going back there this spring to go to Glacier National Park. So it's it's a it's a beautiful outdoors location that people just don't recognize once they get, you know, picked to go to Malmstrom Air Force Base. They automatically think negative when there's so many good things about the state. So as a California kid, I want to kind of leave you with this.

1:19:02 What would you say? Cal Poly Pomona, right? What would you say to that that freshman ROTC cadet that Mike Yam's on? Or what would you say to them now about service? Yeah. So when I was when I got commissioned and I was a young lieutenant, I was an under the radar kind of guy. I did it. I wanted to stay below the out of out of the limelight and out of people's abuse. And I think if I was to talk to that young lieutenant again, I would say challenge yourself, right? Put yourself out there, because if you don't challenge yourself and you don't do new things, you will never learn. I didn't start developing until probably when I was a senior captain, young major, when Crazy Jack sent me to Montana because

1:20:05 of the scandal. Right. And I was really I was really tested in my ability to try to investigate and try to get to the bottom of things as far as what was going on in our community. And it didn't test me as much as that did. So if I was to talk to my young self again, I would say, put yourself out there, you know, learn from, you know, you're still young that you can commit those mistakes, right, and learn from those mistakes. Because a mistake, everyone's entitled to mistake. The problem is if the mistake is repeated again, it's no longer a mistake. It's not a problem. So I was always afraid to make mistakes. So that's why I always I was I always stayed under the radar.

1:20:46 I would always tell myself to challenge myself and go ahead and make those mistakes as long as you learn from them and and and mainly challenge myself. Because I never did. I sure did. I went with the flow. I didn't go against the grain. But today I'm OK with it going against the grain. Call the baby ugly when it's ugly. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't ruffle feathers and I didn't want to ruffle feathers. Probably is because of the toxic environment that we were living in. I don't know. Maybe thinking back now, probably there was a that was in the back of my head, I didn't want to have to be facing the wrath of toxic leadership. But maybe if I was to do it again, I probably should have to expose that toxic leadership.

1:21:40 Right. Somebody needs to step up to against the bully, expose the bully so that things can change. That's what I would say to the young lieutenant again is is up your game, challenge yourself, make the mistakes. And it's OK to to go against the grain for sure. Yeah. Does that make sense? It does. It absolutely does. And I tell the same thing to my boys right now. They're picking classes for the following year. And I keep telling them, why don't you take that class? All that class is too hard. How do you even know? How do you know you can end up loving that class? And it could it could change your life and you become somebody that's really into science or somebody that's really into math just because you think something's

1:22:31 hard because some other kid told you is hard. What is it? What does that mean? You don't know. Yeah. So, yeah, exactly. I'm with your kiddos, but yeah, I mean, I always tell the story in command. I had I had like three flight commander positions that opened up because people were PCSing in. And for transparency purposes, you know, I want people to apply and do the vetting process interview and talk to the people to see and pick who would be the best candidate to fill those positions. And I remember one of the candidates, you know, he was specifically applying for a specific flight commander position. And I asked him, I was like, why this position versus the other position?

1:23:11 And his answer was, is because I know this position more than the other. Guess what position he got sent to? So I chose him for the other position that he wasn't familiar with and the reason why I told him when I hired him for that position, I was like, first off, I know I recognize this is a position that you are not comfortable with and that you are not applying for. But I'm going to hire you for this position. And are you going to accept it? And here's the reason why I want to hire you is because I want you to learn more about yourself. You know, you'll learn the mission, but I want you to learn more about yourself that you can do it and that you can challenge yourself to be a better leader

1:23:49 and to be a better person by by putting you in that position. And and he excelled and he understood and he accepted the position. And that's that's one of the things that back in when I was in command, I was just hoping I had that mindset when I was young and a young officer that I had that mindset and that somebody was there to challenge me. Oh, oh, yeah. Right. But yeah, the boss needed my phone the way the boss did the boss. She needed my phone. Tell her I said hi. Mike says hi. Oh, that that's that must be a cue that it's time for you to cut this. I guess. I guess. Well, brother, man, it is so good to catch up with you. Same here, man. What are we going to when are we going to do it again?

1:24:45 Because I didn't even get to the list of the things I want to ask you. Well, once you review this podcast and you can figure out that everything I said was trash, we can do it again better. You know, it's good. It's good. I think we've come to the to the moment that embracing the suck and just doing things to take care of one another. It makes the world of difference. Yeah. And taking care of the people definitely will take care of the mission for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It was good to see you, Mike. Whenever you do have a chance to see Jen, tell her I said hello. And I don't believe I've ever met your parents. So I I don't I don't I don't think I know. I don't think you have.

1:25:29 I met one of your brothers and your sister was like a nurse. Uh. Air Force. Wasn't she like a. My my sister in law. OK. Yeah. So I've had a couple of them, but I don't think I met your parents. Yeah. Well, hopefully. Like I said, congratulations to your graduate graduation, to your your retirement. Hey, it is a graduation. I've graduated from the military. Now I need to grow up and get a real job. Oh, geez. What you're doing here, man, is is going to work wonders. So tell Heather and the kids I said hello and tell them I said thank you for their dedication to you and your 24 year career. Thanks, buddy. I'll talk to you later. Love you, man. I mean, I love you, too.

1:26:10 See you, Mikey. See you. Bye bye.