Dad's Last Plea: Find My Daughter Before I Die

Full transcript

11,292 words · 1:06:46 runtime

00:00 Childhood Sports and a Tough Dad

0:00 Okay, oh my gosh, Lindsay, long time, long time. I have so many fond memories as I was reading your book, your description of your time with your dad and he's telling you how to throw how to throw a baseball and wanted you to play basketball. Tell me about tell me about that time because I have fond memories. I specifically remember this with you. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I feel like my childhood was pretty idyllic. Like, you know, growing up in a university place and lots of kids around, you know, lots of families and, you know, just always fun stuff happening. So yeah, I mean, I was the only child for 10 years. And so I don't know, maybe I think my dad maybe secretly wanted a boy or maybe not so secretly. I don't know. But, you know, he says that I actually came to him.

0:59 Saying that I wanted to learn how to play softball. So I don't know. But yeah, he did. He did try to encourage me to play other sports like basketball, which I was never interested in. But, you know, definitely, he was, you know, the one out in the street, you know, teaching me how to throw and catch and hit and, you know, sort of instilling that mantra into me that, you know, you can't throw like a girl, you know, and, you know, you gotta be tough and, you know, all those fun things. So definitely sticks with you. You were a horrible ballplayer. I mean, I remember how hard you used to throw. Just, you know, attending softball games that you guys were playing. You were you were quite the athlete. And so I find it hilarious in your book. You're saying some of the some of the girls were, you know, scared, scared to catch your catch your throws.

01:54 High School Friendships and Reunions

1:54 Yeah, that was early on. I think like elementary school age. And it's funny, because my best friend, Laura, who, you know, our very first day of seventh grade. And so our first day of junior high, I met her. And she walks up to me and says, I remember you from softball. And I hated you. We went to different elementary schools. And then it was like, Oh, okay, well, do you want to come over after school? And then that was it. Like, we were best friends from there on. So I went to I went to elementary school with Laura, which element or which elementary school did you go to? I went to Chambers. You went to Chambers. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And did you guys go to Sunset?

2:33 Yeah, we went to Sunset. Okay. Yeah. Laura was always a superb athlete as well. So you guys were kicking ass on the softball field. Yeah. And you still have in touch. I see a lot of Facebook posts and things with you guys together. Yeah, it's funny, because Laura and Lori are, you know, two of my close friends from school. And, and actually, they're probably the two people that I keep in touch with, from from high school, I don't really see anybody else from school. Did you go to the the 30th anniversary? I did not go? No, I didn't go to the reunion. I actually one of my good friends turned 50. And so I went to her 50th birthday party, which is the same day. So I missed it.

3:21 Okay. But but I did get to see Laura because she was in town. She said she she went to it. And then you live where do you live in town? Because in the book, you described the the Narrows Bridge?

03:30 From Police to Civil Rights and Real Estate

3:32 Yeah, I live. I live pretty close to the Narrows Bridge. So sort of off Jackson. And then your husband? Yeah. And he's still serving? Yes? No, he's retired. He retired about two years ago from the police department. Okay, what is he doing now? He works for the state for the Criminal Justice Training Commission. So the police academy up in Durian. He works up there as an assistant director. Describe describe your new career, because I know that you mentioned in the book, that separation anxiety that that fear of leaving the police force. Describe your your new career. Describe your new career. Well, it's kind of changed. I mean, I've done several things since leaving the police department. So I went to work for the Attorney General's office. And I was there for maybe four years in total. And I did a few different roles as an investigator there. So I worked on the sexual assault kit initiative for a few years. And that was the, you know, clearing the backlog of untested sexual assault kits. And then I worked in the HIST unit, which is the Homicide Investigation and Tracking System unit.

4:44 Describe your new career. So I went to work for the National Police department for a number of years. And then I worked for the Bureau of Historic Development in New York. I worked there for a number of years. I was the police department attorney for six years. So for a number of years, I was the Senior Assistant Attorney. And I was working on the Homicide was in the state of Washington. And then, from there, I actually went, I left the Attorney General's office and got my real estate license. And I actually went to work for Redfin for about like a little, little under a year, maybe. And then I decided I don't think, as much as I love real estate and I love houses, selling them and being a salesperson is not really my jam.

5:13 Describe your new career. So I decided that was not for me. So then I went to work at the Deathaly Pagani. back to the Attorney General's office. And I actually worked in the Civil Rights Division for about eight months as an investigator. And then I got my current job at a non-profit. So

05:30 The Missing DNA Gap in Justice

5:31 it's a global non-profit. And I basically act as a subject matter expert to other law enforcement agencies around the country who have federal grants. And so I help them with their cold case projects, DNA related things. So where are we when it comes to trying to get all 50 states on board? Are we there? Where are we on tracking that so far? Well, I don't know. As far as like sexual assault get something? Yeah. In your book, you were really advocating for trying to provide more awareness, more communication amongst the states and precincts. Where are we in that progress? I think we're kind of all over the board. I mean, you know, so you're talking about, you know, you're talking about, you know, you're talking about, you know,

6:18 the testing of previously untested sexual assault kits is sort of one issue. And I think that most states have gotten a pretty good handle on that. The other side of that coin, which I don't think many states have gotten a handle on is the missing offender samples in the National DNA Database. And so those are the people that have been convicted of qualifying offenses. And for whatever reason, and there's a long laundry list of reasons why their DNA was never collected and put into the database for the purpose of solving cases. And so that is still really, I think, in its infancy, as far as, you know, understanding on a national level that that is a problem. I think

7:02 there are a lot of assumptions by government officials that, well, of course, you know, that like DNA testing has been around since the 90s. And most states have had laws on the books since the early 90s about collecting DNA samples. And it just seems like common sense, right? Like, if you are convicted of a rape, you're not going to be convicted of a rape. And so, you know, if you are convicted of a rape or a murder, and you went to prison, of course, your DNA would be collected and put into the database. And the reality is that that's not necessarily the case. Lots of reasons why that doesn't always happen. And because of that, you know, crimes don't

7:36 solve. And I think that not only can we solve crimes by getting more samples in, but we can actually prevent crimes from happening. While I was reading your book, I was thinking about, you mentioned Alexandria, Virginia, and coming out here to do some work. Did any of that, and evolve or involve legislation or lobbying or trying to bring awareness to Congress? What was that interaction for you to come out here to Alexandria? So that particular trip was just a case review for Jennifer Bastian and Michelle Welch's case. And that was like 2014. So I have never lobbied for any federal legislation. I was able to work with legislators in Washington State, though, to get some legislation passed here.

8:24 In Washington related to DNA collection. And that law is actually named after those two girls called Jennifer and Michelle as well. So currently, I worked in legislative affairs, Secretary of Defense's office on legislative affairs. And I've really had a chance to see how both parties, you know, work their constituents to get an agenda across. And what I've noticed, and I'm curious to hear your comment on this is, the right is about, law and order. That's one of their main political talking points is law and order. Yet, if you want more DNA collection, you're having to give up some of those civil liberties. Where would you balance between those two? Yeah, so the funny thing is, is that you're actually not giving up any civil liberties. I

9:19 mean, the laws that are currently on the books, they've been in place for decades. So it's not like, you know, it's not like, we're saying you need to somehow collect DNA from somebody who ordinarily wouldn't have to provide it. These people were ordered by a judge to provide it as a result of their judgment and sentence or their conviction or their arrest. And they just haven't done it. So yeah, this is not like it's going outside the, you know, the reach of the government or anything like that. This is like, this is these laws have been in place for years. So it's just it's the problem is that no one has really ever done a thorough, you know, nationwide to figure out how many people actually own DNA. It would be incredibly difficult to do

10:08 that because none of the systems that contain that information talk to each other. So it's a problem. And there are very few states that are taking advantage of federal funding to address this issue. There is federal funding available for law enforcement agencies to actually address this issue. But we don't like currently, I believe there are only 15 agencies nationwide. That are taking advantage of federal funding to do this work. Well, there you go. I think you have your follow on career, you could be an advocate for for the grants and getting some of these other communities aware of what's out there. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty horrific. And I mean, I've come up with example after example after example

10:56 of these horrific offenders who slipped through the cracks, right? And they either died in prison, maybe they sat in prison for 30 plus years. Yeah. And then they never have their DNA collected. And then when it's finally collected, boom, you know, they hit to all these cold cases. Well, you know, those cold cases, the families have been waiting years and years and years for some answer. Law enforcement has been spinning their wheels for years, if not decades, spending thousands and tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to investigate these cases when they could have

11:30 The Heartbreak of Unsolved Cases

11:30 been solved decades earlier with a simple CODIS hit. I feel I felt terrible. When? When finishing off the book where you were talking about the father just saying, I don't have a lot of time. I just I mean, of course, you and law enforcement and your fellow colleagues that have spent all this time investigating this, but for the father, I mean, can you can you talk us through that? How I mean, Yeah, I mean, that's the hardest part about these cases. And I think for myself, personally, that's what was really a motivating factor for me to try to solve a lot of these cases. I think a lot of the cases that I worked on was that I knew there was, you know, a family waiting.

12:16 Right? You know, and just because it had been 30 years, it doesn't mean that it was any less painful for them. It's not like they forgot about it. So, with with Jennifer Bastian's case, there was a scene that I, you know, talked about in the book where my partner and I had gone to their home to actually get some photos of Jennifer for that case review that we did in Alexandria at the National Center. For missing and exploited children. And as we were leaving Jennifer's father, you know, grabbed on to my partner and and, you know, with tears in his eyes, said, you know, I don't I don't have much time left. You know, I need you to find out what happened to my baby girl.

13:01 And it was just it was it was heart wrenching. It was it was God, you know, it's one of those things where you just like it, you know, just not that I didn't know it was real before. But when you are looking straight at somebody looking at a family member, and they're just like, oh, my God, what's going on? What's going on? What's going on? And they're just begging you to please, you know, give them some answers. And those answers don't necessarily mean that somebody needs to be arrested and charged with a lot of these cold cases. Yeah, that's the ultimate goal. But even if the offender said they still want they want to know, they want to know that the police didn't forget about them.

13:35 They want to know that that their loved one is important. And you know, they want to know that somebody is still working on it. And so sometimes that can be just as important and meaningful to family members as someone being convicted. You mentioning that part of the reason why I'm coming up with this podcast. And I mean, I joke around and say, Look, I don't have the face for television. And I don't have the voice for radio. But I have the passion for people and stories. And in the military, there's so many amazing stories and people want to be validated and understood. So it seems very similar that these these families even though they know their son or daughter is never coming back, the validation of

14:20 knowing that they're not going to be convicted, they're not going to be convicted, they're not going to be convicted. And so it seems like the fact that that you did what you could is bringing some comfort to them. Absolutely. And even with, you know, living victims of, you know, sexual assault cases, you know, I've had victims who have told me that, you know, it was just so important for them to know that they hadn't been forgotten, and that someone was actually working on their case, even if we weren't able to solve it, just the fact that we took the time to reach out to them and to talk to them, was, you know, hugely impactful. So, the traditional wind, so to speak, with putting somebody in handcuffs or sending someone to

15:04 prison. Sometimes it's just that human connection, right? You built the hook in the book, talking about you as a child and some of these similar things

15:15 Parenting in a Dangerous World

15:16 happening to you. Having a daughter of your own now, I would just be so continuously fearful at all times because you see all this darkness. How do you look at your daughter and, of course, you love her and want her to be safe and successful, but at the same time, you see all this darkness. How do you balance that out? It's hard. When she was younger, it was pretty scary. When we first moved to Tacoma, she was about six, I think, when we moved to Tacoma. And prior to that, we lived way out in the country and it was rural and not a lot of kids around. And so she was pretty contained, you know, and then we moved to this neighborhood similar to a neighborhood I grew up in and there's kids everywhere, right?

16:15 And they're like running up and down the streets and on their bikes and going this way and that way. And I mean, it was like sensory overload for me when we when we first moved in because I was like, no, I've got to have like line of sight, you know, at all times. And, you know, over time, you know, that's let up some. But, you know, she's still she's only 14. So, you know, that's taken a lot for me to try to figure out how to balance not scaring the shit out of her with keeping her safe and, you know, teaching her about safety and and that kind of thing. And she's a smart kid. So, you know, we try to sort of, you know, lessen, I guess, lessen the likelihood that, you know, she might be vulnerable or, you know, could be victimized.

17:02 But, you know, at the end of the day, you can't keep them under wraps, you know, you can't keep them with you 24 7. So at some point. You just have to trust in what you instilled in them about safety and, you know, being aware of your surroundings and, you know, kind of the buddy system, don't, you know, don't go places by yourself. And but, you know, now with the phones and the Internet and chat rooms and TikTok and like, you know, all all the things roadblocks and, you know, all the ways that that these people can communicate with kids, it's pretty frightening. And so. Having those conversations with your kids and trying to stay up to date on what kind of apps they're using and how they're accessing information is is like almost like a full time job.

17:52 And that's even more scary, I think, than like sending them outside on the street to play because there's so much information that people can gather off the Internet and there's, you know, kids don't necessarily understand that someone who says they're a 15 year old boy on roadblocks might be, you know, a 50 year old dude living in his mom's basement. And that's scary. And that's scary. And that's scary. And so that's, you know, that's the balancing act. So her being a 14 year old. What if she comes to mom and dad and says, you know, I'm fascinated with law enforcement as well. Just just seeing the two of you and and having so much passion for your job.

18:37 What do you say to her if she wants to be involved in law enforcement? I say go with the fire department. Go with them. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm going to support her in whatever she wants to do. But, you know, just knowing. I mean, I loved my career and I thought it was amazing. But I, you know, it's dangerous, right? Like no parent wants their kids to be involved in a career that where they can potentially be killed or, you know, seriously injured or just aside from the physical demands of it. There's also like the psychological toll of working on these kinds of cases and, you know, just seeing like horrific things all the time. It can definitely skew your thought process and it can definitely sort of make you think that everybody's a bad guy.

19:34 Right. Like, I don't. And so as a parent, I don't want my kid to have to deal with that. I want her to, you know, do something that makes her happy. And, you know, hopefully I just have told her, you know, when you start thinking about careers, try to come up with ideas about things that you really enjoy because you want to be able to go to work every day and enjoy what you do. If you have to go to work every day and you hate it, it's going to be a long career.

20:00 The Toll of Detective Life

20:00 Yeah. Yeah. Just during those cases that you describe in the book, you must have had some hundred hour work weeks. Some of them that you were describing, what was a typical work week like when you were in the heat of an investigation? It depends. You know, if it was one of the cases in the book was a child abduction that happened on the 4th of July. And that one, we basically didn't have days off. We just stayed home. We just kept on working just, you know, 15, you know, probably 15, 16 hour days every day. And so it kind of depends. And, you know, with my work, I would have, you know, I typically work as a detective, like a day shift Monday through Friday with my assigned schedule.

20:53 But, you know, crime doesn't happen Monday through Friday, 8 to 5. So we had on-call rotation. So, you know, you'd work your regular shift, but then you'd be on call. And if you got called out, you could be out all weekend, you know, on a call out because you don't just go out, take a report and go home. You just work. You keep working the case. So, you know, it's a lot. It's a lot of work. And to be honest, I was on call for about 14 years straight. And I just got completely burned out with being on call because even when you're not working and you have a day off, when you're on call, you can't really do anything. You know? You can't go too far away. You need to be able to respond within a reasonable amount of time.

21:40 You need to have all your gear with you, you know, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, just it really it does, you know, take an impact and make an impact on your personal life. And when my daughter was younger, I don't know, maybe she was like four or five. I remember getting called out one night and, you know, going up to say goodbye to her. And, you know, she's just like, you know, mom, don't go. You know, please don't go. You know, I don't want you to go. And it was just like heartbreaking, you know. And there were a few times like that where, you know, I'd be putting her to bed and she, you know, just like, please don't leave. I don't want you to go. And so that, yeah, that's like it would be tough.

22:22 When you make detective, is it based on salary? Are you still an hourly employee and you're getting overtime or you're getting comp time for that? Because in the military, you know, you can work a 24-hour day and that's just all you're getting. There's no additional. Overtime renewing. Yeah. So we're, yeah, detectives were hourly. So we got overtime and you could either take it as overtime or as comp time. So, yeah, you're getting paid, but there's a toll, you know, and there's a cost associated with that.

23:00 Tacoma's Dark Reputation and Serial Killers

23:00 You, I know we were texting before this and it's when we, when I describe Tacoma to people, they think, you know, is it just a bunch of murderers and serial killers? Because we have a lot of. Very famous prolific serial killers from our area. So what, what is it? What, what's going on there? Yeah. I don't know. I mean, yes, we've, we've had our share, like in, I would say the Pacific Northwest, right? Like we've got Bundy, Ridgeway, Yates, you know, Dodd. Well, we have a whole bunch from this area, but I mean, all the other big states do too. It's just, you know, why? Maybe they're more popular. They're the most, you know, more notorious. I don't know. We have two of the big five from Washington alone with Bundy and Ridgeway.

23:54 So, but yeah, I mean, people that are not from here, even in Washington, you know, people are like Tacoma, you know, scary. I mean, I don't think it's that scary, but I've been to a lot of cities and traveled, you know, to a lot of other places that are actually, yeah, you know, far worse, I would say. You know, yeah. There's certain parts of Tacoma that I wouldn't hang out in and, you know, wouldn't want my daughter hanging out in, but I mean, I think that's pretty much every city. Just for the, for the listeners that don't know us or don't know the background that I was sharing with you before is that I ran in the park, Point Defiance Park, with my dad on those trails.

24:43 And we noticed, you know, a strange odor. Of course, we didn't know what it was. But as, as the city started to come down to the lot. There were many dog dogs. So it was just a kind of clear, but like, I mean, yeah, you could tell that there was something in there. And that's also, that's one of the other things that I've gotten to. Is it, is it like a, is it like a part of just the, of the, of the park where you're walking and actually walking? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a great part of it. And then my grandmother's husband, he worked at the Kenworth trucking plant with the Green River Killer. I'm like, how does all this stuff come together?

25:35 People start looking at me like, hey, man, maybe it's you. And I said, oh, just to put icing on the cake. We used to go to the shooting range where the DC sniper bought his firearm when he was stationed in Fort Lewis. So it's just like one thing after another. So, yeah, when I described Tacoma and living in Lakewood when I was stationed in McCord Air Force Base, and of course, seeing it on cops all the time, people are like, that's where you live? That's... Yeah. I mean, you know, what is it, what's the phrase, is it like six degrees of separation? Something like that. In Tacoma, it's like two degrees of separation, I swear, because there's always a connection.

26:18 Like you can't go anywhere without somebody saying they went to school with Ted Bundy or their mom. Or the grandma, you know, somebody, I mean, my mom knew his mom, because she worked in the office at University of Puget Sound, and that's where my mom went to college. So yeah, there's all these connections. It's not really a small town, but it kind of is a small town. Yeah. Well, I enjoyed your book, the part where you started off at Western Washington University up in Bellingham. And then you decided to come home.

26:50 Breaking Barriers as a Woman of Color

26:50 What was it? What was that draw to come back home? I was really ready to be back home. I was ready to be on my own at that at that point, I missed home, I missed my, you know, family, friends. And so I just didn't really, it wasn't my place, like, I felt like a different number up there at Western, it was like such a big school, and, you know, so spread out and kind of a lonely place. So I didn't, yeah, it just wasn't my thing. And so I decided to come back home and enroll at a community college. And then once I finished up there, I ended up going to college. I was going to Central Washington University, but also here in Lakewood, so one of their satellite branches, and then I got hired with the police department after my first semester,

27:43 I think, first quarter or first semester at Central. You also mentioned that being first of all, a young woman, and a woman of color was a very difficult transition on the police department. How was that? Is that improved throughout your career? Yeah. I think so. I mean, I think that I feel like every generation of women sort of like paved the way for the next generation, where, you know, things are a little bit easier and a little bit better. You know, some of the things that my mentors dealt with, when they came on the police department in the 70s was just absolutely blow your mind. And you know, I feel like I didn't really have to deal with anything crazy like that.

28:32 But I would say things were a much more overt back then. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, there's, there's always going to be, you know, guys in a career, especially in a law enforcement career that, you know, maybe, I don't know, don't think women belong or don't think women can do the job as well as men or whatever. But I think that for now, at least in in this area, I mean, if there are guys that think that way, they tend to keep it to themselves or keep it with their close friends. There. And there are a lot more women. You know, doing the job. These days. And so I think that it's gotten better, you know, for women, but I think that there's always going to be a degree of, and it's probably similar in the military, I'm sure

29:29 it's similar in, you know, firefighting, really any male dominated field, I do feel like women need to, whether they need to, or they have to sort of prove themselves. And I don't know if that'll ever change, but I do think that women aren't just like, accepted off the bat. Like, you have to prove that you can actually do that, you know, do the job before you're truly accepted. We have a mutual friend, he'll remain nameless, just because I don't know if he wants the story public or not.

30:00 Internal Conflict and the Thin Blue Line

30:00 But his police department, he said there was a lot of hazing, and they were really hard on him, just based on rank, you know, I've been here longer than you. So you know, you got to take it, you got to take the jokes, you got to take whatever. And so I think he said, you know, eight to 10 years or so on the force, he decided to just retire, because he said, Hey, I mean, can't we just be grownups and, and work together without the without the rubbing, but ribbing, but I don't know if that's department to department or if it's just part of the part of the culture, because I imagine is similar to the military, you got a lot of folks with a lot of testosterone and you know, working out, you got to maintain

30:40 that physical strength, because you're in all these confrontations. Yeah, I do. I mean, I think that I'm probably from the public. I'm not sure. But I think that's the the perception, you know, there's this idea that there's like this thin blue line, and you know, all the cops get along, and they all, you know, would do anything for each other. And that's not the case. I mean, if you saw like the inner workings of the police department, most of the cops hate each other, they don't get along, you know, or they have like their small group of, you know, people that they're close with, but it is it's cutthroat. You know, to cutthroat job, I think there's a lot of I don't know, I don't know what the

31:18 word is. And I can only speak to you know, the agencies or the people that are involved. I don't know, you know, what all agencies are like, but it's not an easy environment. It's not like you get hired, and there's like, you're welcomed with open arms, and everybody, you know, wants to welcome you and, and teach you everything and take, you know, take you under their wing. And that's, it's not, it's not like that at all. You just added another level of stress that I didn't think about the standpoint of, you could have internal conflicts in, in the department, but then also, you're forced to make these life or death split decision. What's the term I'm looking for these, these decisions between life or death between help

32:05 me out here. I'm stumbled on what I'm trying to say, like, if you're out on a call, you're out on a call, and something can go wrong, something can escalate to the point where violence is involved. And these split second decisions could end your career and somebody's and somebody's life. And you're at fault. So here you are trying to deal with the conflict of, you know, not necessarily having the best relationship with the folks on your team. But also, you have to deal with the community that a lot of times they're out there with their phones, trying to, you know, catch you guys doing something wrong. Whereas we all know 99.9% of you are just doing the best that you can.

32:51 Yeah, yeah, lots of you know, there's lots of internal pressure. And stress.

33:00 Serving with Purpose Despite the Cost

33:01 And then, you know, you have the external pressure and stress of just, you know, the job itself and the cases and so yeah, it can be a lot. So if you hadn't joined the force, what would you have done as a as a young woman? That's all I wanted to do. So I don't know, but I would have done if I hadn't gotten hired with the police department, I think, looking like if I could go back now. And, and do it over. Again, I probably would have done the same thing. I mean, I always feel like there's a reason for everything and, and, you know, choices that we make, we may not be completely clear at the moment why, you know, this is the right path. But at some point, you know, it starts to make sense.

33:53 And so I would probably do it all the same again. I completely agree with you. Right now, there's a lot of cancer research studies going on in the military. And one of my one of my friends is dealing with cancer. He's dealing with stage four cancer, and he's battling through chemotherapy and hit, you know, he's a young, young guy, like me, I'm 49, I think he's 48. And, and he says, Micah, you know, I'm not, I'm not gonna make it. And so talking to my wife, I said, I've been exposed to all the same things that he has burn pits overseas, you know, flying airplanes, and high altitude is a lot of radiation exposure. And so talking to my wife, I said, I've been exposed to all the same things that he has

34:43 Down and then working in the missile silos with with my friend that has stage four cancer, I still think to myself, I I still wouldn't change anything. I I love the job. I love the mission. I love giving back. I love serving. And so I it's that if that conversation happens, and I go to the doctor and and that's what Mike said, please go get chest X rays get blood tests, figure out it's you know, if there's a possibility of this happening to you or a mentee. And of course, that's horrible. And I feel for Mike. But I still don't think I would change. I think I would continue with the mission. And for you to see these poor children, it just brought up a lot of emotion in me listening and reading your book. But it's nice to know that you wouldn't change.

35:45 Somebody's got to do it. You know, and not everyone is cut out to investigate, especially crimes against children. And so if there are people that are interested in that, you know, want to work the cases and have a passion for it, then there's got to be people like that. Right. And I don't think you should do it forever. I certainly was not cut out to do it forever.

36:00 Personal Connections to Local Crime

36:06 At some point, you have to recognize, you know, that it's time to move on and that, you know, it's taking a toll on you mentally. But yeah. Yeah. You know, I want to know that if something ever happened to me or one of my loved ones, that there's a detective out there that actually gives a shit and is going to work their ass off to try to solve the case. As I was reading the book, and I was reading some of the language, I was like, Oh, my God, this is so Lindsay, I can literally see you saying, saying these things as you're as you're writing, writing the book. I mean, I could the passion was coming out and the language is coming out. And I started thinking about the cackling last.

36:48 When we were young, and it just you describe you describe Lakewood. And I told my wife, I was like, actually, Lindsay, and I walked around the mall one day at the Lakewood Mall, would you would you walk around that that same mall today? I don't even think it exists anymore. Oh, really? Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah, Lakewood has some interesting pockets. It does. Yeah, it absolutely does. I was trying to think of the last time I saw you besides the award ceremony. For the for the Tacoma Mall shooting. And when I was a medic at the hospital, I think you came in a couple times. And one of the folks that came in was one of our high school classmates. And I just felt terrible for her.

37:42 So, you know, obviously maintaining PII and the professionalism of all of it. But I just, I felt terrible that I was in the hospital, of course, there to help. But at the same time, it is a personal. personal friend growing up with, is there any personal, um, friends or colleagues that you had to experience something similar? I mean, I definitely, you know, ran into people that I knew from time to time, just, you know, on calls and things like that when I was in patrol. Um, I didn't, luckily I don't think I was ever in a position where I, you know, was had to investigate a case that involved someone that I knew well, um, anything like that. But, uh, you know, I definitely was put in, in, in a position when I was a homicide detective to,

38:39 to investigate, um, officer-involved shootings. And so, you know, those are very challenging and, you know, you're investigating your own, um, officers, you know, on your department. And so that, you know, can be, um, an interesting dynamic to say the least. Um, and I don't, I think since, since I left, they sort of changed that and they have like a team, a regional team that does those investigations now. And so, I don't think that officers from the same agency are the lead investigators for that agency any longer, which I think is a good thing because it is difficult, you know, to, to investigate your

39:20 The Tragic Loss of a Friend

39:20 own, uh, team members basically. That segues into my conversation about, um, Sean. I'm actually wearing, uh, his shirt, um, that his brother had made, um, after his passing. We had a lot of conversations, um, you know, for the listeners out there. We, we were rooming, roommates together. We worked at the hospital together. Uh, we went to the gym together. Um, he introduced me to my wife. So he would always joke and say, you know, Mike, your, your life and happiness is all, is, is all owed to me. And he's, he's absolutely right. But, um, when he had to take, uh, somebody's life in the line of duty, he was really struggling and he knew that in my job, I had similar stories. Um, so we had a lot of heartbreak

40:16 conversations about, about taking lives. And there's a lot of things that we have to do that, um, morally we obviously struggle with and he just, he couldn't, he couldn't get over it. We talked about it over and over and over again. Um, and then, you know, he'd always been a, you know, a social drinker and, and then he just started drinking more and more, uh, to the point where he came to visit us at our house and we had some vodka in the freezer and he, he drank the whole bottle. Um, and would be totally lucid, normal conversations. I mean, you wouldn't even think anything of it. And, um, so I just started to get concerned to the point where after that trip, he, uh,

41:03 he went home and I, I told my wife, Heather, I said, look, I'm, I'm very concerned about him. I, somebody might need to do a, you know, a welfare check, um, because of, because of the drinking and just abusing his body. And then it just started to escalate because he was on the SWAT team. Speaker 1 And. I think he said he injured his knee or injured his shoulder and he couldn't, um, participate with the SWAT team. So he was losing his identity. So he, he says, you know, not only have I taken a life in the line of duty, but now I'm not part of that team, um, that I've been a part of for the last X amount of years. And it was almost like thinking of somebody

41:48 being a professional athlete that, that can't do that, that job anymore. And how, how do they, um, Speaker 2 How do they settle into a different role? Um, so every time I was down or hard on myself, he, you know, he would be like, Mike, you know, snap out of it. He's like, my God, you're a Colonel in the air force. And you, you, you're a pilot, you fly airplanes, you do all these amazing things. And you've got this amazing wife and these two kids, and he would really help me snap out of it. And I just have this internal guilt that I didn't help him snap out of it. Um, did he have a community, a support community of friends? Speaker 3 Cause now that you told me a lot of police

42:31 officers don't get along or, you know, not necessarily close once he couldn't do the SWAT thing. Did you see a change? Did anybody notice a difference? Speaker 4 Well, you know, I was gone from the department since 2018. I mean, I retired, so I wasn't, and even when I was there, I was a detective and so detective are very separated from patrol. So, I mean, I might pass on in the hallways. On occasion, um, you know, or see him on a call out or something like that here and there, but it was very infrequent. Um, but I know that there was a lot of camaraderie and, I mean, he, he was, he was well liked and, you know, he had a lot of friends on the department. So, um, and my understanding is that, you know, there was, there were a lot

43:21 of people that reached out to try to help him over the years and, um, you know, a lot of people that really cared deeply for him, um, which was pretty, you know, evident at his memorial. So, I don't think that he was off, you know, off on his own. I think there were a lot of people that tried, um, you know, over the years to, to try to help him. And, you know, um, you just never know what's going on inside somebody else's head. Speaker 5 I don't mean this to turn into a therapy session. It's just, for me, it's therapeutic to talk to somebody that knows and knew Sean. Um, I was working in the Pentagon and I got a text message from Tony and I don't know if

44:07 you've met Tony and he said, you know, call me. So I call Tony and he says, um, Sean's gone. Like, what are you talking about? And he said, Sean, Sean took his own life. Um, and then I thought he's a Tacoma police officer. He lives in Tacoma. Now his own colleagues are responding to this, to this call. Um, I, I, I can't imagine having to, um, respond to a colleague, um, that, that has taken the call. Speaker 6 Yeah. I can't imagine that either. Honestly. Um, I don't, luckily I was never put into a position like that. Um, but yeah, I can't imagine. Speaker 5 I, I, I still feel guilty to this day and I know it was completely out of my, you know, my own control, but, uh, the family asked

45:17 me to be a pallbearer. And so I'm flying out there and we have terrible weather in DC thunderstorms. So they, they canceled the flight and then they tried to push me to a Texas flight. Speaker 6 And they tried to push me to another flight and then, then they lost my luggage. And so I couldn't even get on a different flight because you know, my uniform and everything was in the luggage. And I kept trying to tell them, I said, please, whatever, whatever you can do. I'm literally a pallbearer at a funeral. I really need to get there. And I couldn't get there. And, um, I felt like I let his family down. I let, you know, friends down that I, that I couldn't be there. And of course,

45:55 everybody understands that, that, that it was out of my control. Speaker 6 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just to not have that chance to say goodbye. Um, yeah, it was, uh, it was hard. Um, and I know, I mean, we've, we've all got our faults. Sean's got plenty of faults. I got plenty of faults, but he was just such a amazing, charismatic, funny guy. I always told him, I'm like, man, you should have a fricking podcast. You are the funniest guy because not only are you witty and remarkably intelligent, but you just have this, this aura about you that everybody, just loves to, to, to joke around with you. Um, so yeah, anyway, not trying to make it a therapy

46:41 session. I'm just, it's so nice. It's so nice to talk to somebody that at least that at least knew him, whether, you know, whether you dealt with them a lot professionally or not, we had such good times at the hospital, um, that, uh, yeah, I missed the guy. Yeah. He was a good, he was a good guy. I, I was not close with John. Um, you know, personally, um, I mean, of course, you know, we were friendly with each other. I probably was interacted with him more off duty, just from like at SWAT functions because, you know, my husband was on the SWAT team with him. Yeah. So the reason I bring that up is that, um, I had this emotional attachment that, you know, I don't

47:26 know if I'll ever get rid of. Um, and it makes me feel good to talk to others about it. Um, but are you having, do you have a similar emotional attachment to these cases? Yeah. Um, you know, there's, there's some cases that they just kind of, you know, I'm sure that I'll, you know, think about them forever. Um, and, you know, to be quite honest, it, it was, I think 2014, when I finally decided that maybe I should talk to a professional and, you know, reached out to a psychologist and started seeing him. And honestly, it was like the best thing I ever did. Um, you know, at that time it was pretty taboo within the police department. Um, you know, nobody talked about PTSD, nobody talked about, uh, trauma, you know, vicarious

48:24 trauma, none of those things were spoken about. Uh, you know, the most we had was those critical incidents, stress debriefings after, you know, some major event, which was, you know, kind of few and far between, but it doesn't, those, I didn't find those helpful. And they certainly didn't address like their chronic day in, day out. Um, you know, like when you're working, sex crimes, you know, especially crimes against children, like it's horrific, horrific stuff that you're dealing with on a day in and day out basis. So I'm, you know, I finally decided that I was going to do something for myself. And, you know, that was honestly the best thing I think that I

49:08 could have done. And I'm happy to hear that, you know, it, it took a long time for the department to finally come around, but it, I think it was 2016, maybe, I don't know, I think it was 2016, maybe, um, that the police department finally brought in a psychologist and now they have a psychologist on staff and, you know, he's available to all the officers, uh, on, on the department. And so that's huge, you know, um, that message coming from the top down that, you know, it's okay, you know, that you're encouraged to actually talk to somebody, um, rather than, you know, waiting, uh, right. Like, I think there's always been this, um, especially in law enforcement, this idea that you, like, you have to be.

49:51 tough and, you know, you can't show weakness and you can't show emotion and, you know, you have to, you know, tamp all your emotions down and, and be a professional. Well, that's true. You, you do have to do that while you're doing your job. You know, you can't break down crying at a crime scene, right. But at some point, like you have to deal with this shit. That's not, you can't just bottle it up and, and just pretend like it doesn't affect you because it, it does. So, um, you know, I'm, I'm glad to hear that things are changing in law enforcement. And I think a lot of agencies are approaching, um, there are so many more resources out there for law enforcement officers and

50:29 firefighters, first responders in general now. Um, and so I think that's good to see that, you know, sort of the attitudes are changing and it's not so, um, frowned upon. It's not taboo, you know, to, to actually reach out and say, you know, like I, I need some help here. I need somebody to talk to. I'm struggling, you know, whatever the situation is. If it's not too emotional for you, can you walk us through the, the tiger mountain scenario? So, well, so that, that was a case that I worked on and that was, um, the, a little girl that was abducted and murdered. Um, we followed the guy up to tiger mountain. He actually ended up dumping her clothing up there, but, um, we didn't find her up there. We ended up finding her, um, at a

51:28 lake in, in Pierce County. And, um, he actually ended up leading us to her body. And so, um, yeah, I mean, that was, that was pretty horrific. Um, especially after getting called out to investigate 4th of July, you know, nine, 10 o'clock at night, that's this missing 12 year old, she's possibly been abducted. And then, you know, to work the case nonstop basically for, I think it was eight days, um, before, you know, we got the offender to lead us to her body. Um, and that was that case just in and of itself was surreal. on multiple levels but um yeah it was it was terrible um you know to see you know to hope have all this hope for all those days that we're going to find this child you know hopefully she's

52:24 alive maybe she's you know just being held somewhere and you know the intent of course is to try to find the child and rescue them and bring them home to their families and um you know when that doesn't happen you know it's heartbreaking yes i'm trying to think how how to phrase this um this question um as i was reading the book i kept thinking to myself i was trying to develop my i was trying to develop i was trying to develop a profile i thought okay are these people do they have a troubled background but your stories talked about you know white sex predators black sex predators hispanic sex predators asian sex predators is there any profile out there that or was there any commonality

53:23 you know in the book about um you know about um you know about um you know about um you know anywhere that you saw with these individuals other than they were predators no no like i mean abuse as a child or you know well i mean some of them you know had those things in their histories but you know to say that that was the causal factor you know i'm not i wouldn't say that um i mean these these were all extremely uh disturbed individuals for a variety of reasons right like we could go through their criminal histories and look at their backgrounds and they all had you know severe behavioral issues but um no i mean there's no like one common you know thread and there's there's no um you know one type right there's lots of types and

54:20 there's lots of reasons and motivations behind why these you know certain offenders do what they do they choose different victims um they you know they they operate differently depending on you on the situation so you know so many things but i guess after working sex crimes and and homicides for years there's sort of like a gut you know gut feeling that you get and i mean i can read a police report or or someone can tell me what the the facts are and pretty much instantly i can tell you like that's a serial offender just by hearing the facts of the case because there's just certain things that stand out that are not that are very abnormal the one that

55:10 was the most disturbing to me was the the high school wrestler yeah what what vibe was there anything that um caused the hairs on the back of your neck to stand up i i know that you said that when you went to investigate him his mom was saying he had some excuse that he was sick or upset or anything was there any other tells because me personally having a 17 year old son myself i can't imagine that that was yeah disturbing to me yeah um so i never actually interacted with him uh so i don't know but i know just from you know what i was told by the other investigators that right off the bat when he you know was like i think the first time they went to get a swab from him and he was his mom

56:07 said he was too too upset you know to you know right then and there they're like he's 17 years old i mean yes is that he seems overly upset for circumstances so that was kind of like a red flag to begin with and then when they went back um you know the second time they ended up getting this bob from him but there was nothing about him um you know no one in the neighborhood reported that he behaved suspiciously or that he was doing inappropriate things with the kids or nothing like that i mean there was you know obviously he had things going on in his head um that were unknown to everybody else that you know that knew him including his family and that's what i was told about him but i don't want to repeat so

56:51 and friends. But, um, yeah, it was, I mean, I was, I was surprised to everybody. Out of all the cold cases that you've, that you've solved, uh, obviously the, the, uh, the point of vines park being kind of the feather in your cap. What other one do you take a lot of pride from, from your, I almost felt like you should be a lawyer. I mean, you are just the way you describe the investigation and the sticky notes, and they're just the continuous of asking of questions. What other case sticks out to you as, as a meaningful, the most meaningful? Uh, well, so there's a one that's more recent that actually isn't in the book because it's got, um, that I'm, you know, very happy about. And this was, you know, I mentioned earlier that

57:50 we got a law passed in Washington called Jennifer and Rochelle's law, and it expands our DNA collection log to allow DNA samples from, deceased offenders to be entered into CODIS, regardless of the conviction date. And, um, prior to the law, if you, if someone was convicted of like a rape or a murder before 1990, they did not qualify to go into the DNA database, which really makes no sense when you think about, think about it from a cold case perspective, because law enforcement is investigating cold cases from the seventies, eighties, you know, even earlier. But if we don't have the offenders in CODIS who were operating during that timeframe, then we're missing out, right? Like we're, we're missing out on solving cases. So that was really

58:42 a big motivation for me, um, to, to get that piece of that legislation passed so that we could enter these guys that were operating back in the, in the seventies and eighties. So once that law passed in 2019, and it took us four years. So it was four years of going down to Olympia, testifying in front of various legislative, uh, committees, um, educating, you know, legislators on our DNA laws and what the shortcomings were. And finally in 2019, getting it passed. So once it passed, I had somebody in mind, an offender in mind who was executed in Washington in 1994. He was convicted of aggravated first degree murder times three. So he was actually a rapist who sexually assaulted a woman like

59:32 blitz attack, attacked her. Her, her infant daughter, um, at her home, he went to prison, got sentenced to 30 years, but he got out after less than six years. And he was living in a halfway house, like not too far from where she lived unbeknownst to her. He was out. He came back and, uh, basically committed a triple homicide, revenge, murder, uh, murdered her, her eight-year-old daughter and her neighbor who had testified against him at his trial. So this guy is like the spot of Satan, basically. I mean, he's like the worst of the worst. And so he was my poster child when I would, you know, talk about how we needed to change the legislation in Washington. Cause I was like, this dude needs to be in TOTUS. He's not in there.

1:00:15 He doesn't even qualify. So he needs to go in. And so he was my number one target. Once we got the law passed, I was able to track down a sample of his DNA from his autopsy. Um, and I literally hand delivered a sample, uh, from the autopsy to the crime lab. And then I didn't hear anything. And so I just assumed it went to TOTUS and there were no matches, but you know, like it didn't really surprise me. And then three years later, I get a phone call from a cold case detective in Seattle. And this was December of 2023. And he calls me up out of the blue and says, Hey, uh, I just got a hit to Charles Campbell on a 1975 cold case murder of a UW student graduate student from UW. And it was like, holy shit. I

1:01:10 cannot even believe this. This is insane. Um, but it's like, you know, right there, it's like, okay, this is validation that this is like, this is why, you know, I keep talking about missing offender samples and TOTUS and lawfully ODNA and like, you know, that family finally has some answers and yeah, he's not going to be prosecuted. He's already been executed by the state. He was actually the last person in Washington to be hanged. But, um, you know, now the family knows who did it and now the law enforcement agency can stop sitting there. We'll investigating a case that, you know, could be solved with a code of fifth. Wow. I, I still think that you have room to be a lobbyist out here in DC and help educate, um, our, uh, legislators

1:02:04 to, to make this more of a, um, a national thing rather than such a local thing, because like you said, even though that person has already been executed for crimes committed, you're closing cases that, um, that allow families closure. So that's, that's got, that's got to mean a lot. So, and Hey, I'm out here in DC, so I live in Fairfax. So next time you're out here, I was just out there, I was just out there like two weeks ago. Well, you've got to, you've got to hit me up because as of right now, I'm at the Pentagon every day, all day, but, uh, retiring here soon. And I, I just, there's so many fascinating people out there that have written such interesting books.

1:02:45 Um, or, you know, whether that's law enforcement, first responders, the military, I just really enjoy getting to know people, uh, from a side that I never knew. Um, so you sharing with this with me and, uh, I'm sure everybody in Tacoma has already already read your book. And, uh, so I'm one of the last to find out about it since, since I don't live in that area anymore. But I have a lot of fond memories of you and, um, the book. It really touched me. I know we're talking through a computer, but I hope you can. It really touched me. Um, and I'm not saying that. just because you're a friend i'm saying that because it's a good book so please plug your book

1:03:30 yes plug your book talk about your book what's it called it's called in my dna uh my career investigating your worst nightmares um probably don't read it if you're home alone uh my daughter has asked to read it and i told her she couldn't read it till she was 30 so it's not for the faint of heart it's not for young kids um it's real you know scary shit that really happens so um you can get it anywhere that they sell books it's on amazon barnes and noble if you just google lindsey wade you'll find it and then i told you i got the audiobook and the kindle um and it's it it's so good i'm so glad we had a chance to talk about this and so next time you are in dc please reach

1:04:23 out to me because i am just trying to build um build upon these stories because i i think that even if this just impacts one person that decides to join law enforcement or one person that you know starts to that wants to be a data scientist in the dna world or um hopefully your book provides inspiration for for somebody else to continue this path and hopefully we get some legislation that that goes across the country so that's why i think you need to come out here and help lobby all right i know we need we definitely need some federal statutes because that's the problem with uh dna legislation is that each state makes their own dna legislation and so it's all it's haphazard it's

1:05:07 all over the board well thank you lindsey what else can you think of that what else can you think of that i didn't that i didn't ask what's your uh what's your fondest memory of us in uh junior high and high school is there any anything that uh you remember oh my god let me think about this so it was funny but right before this i was like i'm pretty sure i'm not going to be able to do this but i remember i have a picture somewhere of you and i at like a colo or something like that maybe wearing the same like same shirt okay or something like that uh i'm gonna have to go through my scrapbook but uh yeah definitely remember hanging out in the neighborhood um i think i had my crazy

1:05:47 brother and sister who were a lot younger at the time like running around yeah at the house well i am so proud of you and it's it's nice to know such a successful young woman that went out there and made it on her own and and kicked ass uh i think it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's i still don't know how you found time to get married and have a kid when you guys work all those hours but uh i'm glad you've you found your life partner and you guys are doing well and uh we need to keep in touch so next time you're in the dc area please please stop by because my wife i'm she loved the book she's she's like oh my god this is so good and i said well maybe i can set up an extra microphone or camera she's like no no no you talk to her since

1:06:25 you guys are friends but she's like just tell her how much i love the book so oh well thank you so much lindsay and please leave me a review on amazon or goodreads because you know that's like the best way to get sales absolutely appreciate it i will thank you so much lindsay all right i'll talk to you later okay bye