Courage Under Fire — Now She's Speaking Out (Part 2)

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26,944 words · 1:02:56 runtime

00:00 Picking Up Where We Left Off

0:03 This powerful interview with Sloan, a This powerful interview with Sloan, a 32-year military veteran, was recorded 32-year military veteran, was recorded 32-year military veteran, was recorded while she and I were still on active while she and I were still on active while she and I were still on active duty and is being released now for the duty and is being released now for the duty and is being released now for the first time. On this landmark episode of first time. On this landmark episode of first time. On this landmark episode of Voice for Valor, we confront a vital Voice for Valor, we confront a vital Voice for Valor, we confront a vital question for our time.

0:16 question for our time. question for our time. >> Tomorrow, there should be thousands of >> Tomorrow, there should be thousands of >> Tomorrow, there should be thousands of people who wake up and get processed people who wake up and get processed people who wake up and get processed out. The harm will be done. out. The harm will be done. out. The harm will be done. >> What is the reality for a service member >> What is the reality for a service member >> What is the reality for a service member who chooses to live their truth within who chooses to live their truth within who chooses to live their truth within the US military? In part one of this

0:29 the US military? In part one of this the US military? In part one of this landmark two-part series, I sat down landmark two-part series, I sat down landmark two-part series, I sat down with Sloan, a highly decorated retired with Sloan, a highly decorated retired with Sloan, a highly decorated retired officer who transitioned while on active officer who transitioned while on active officer who transitioned while on active duty. Sloan shares a raw and unflinching duty. Sloan shares a raw and unflinching duty. Sloan shares a raw and unflinching account of her journey from grappling account of her journey from grappling account of her journey from grappling with gender dysphoria in the hyper

0:44 with gender dysphoria in the hyper with gender dysphoria in the hyper masculine world of explosive ordinance masculine world of explosive ordinance masculine world of explosive ordinance disposal or EOD to the immense courage disposal or EOD to the immense courage disposal or EOD to the immense courage it took to begin her transition under it took to begin her transition under it took to begin her transition under the military's microscope. This is not a the military's microscope. This is not a the military's microscope. This is not a theoretical discussion. It's a deeply theoretical discussion. It's a deeply theoretical discussion. It's a deeply personal narrative of fear, resilience,

1:00 personal narrative of fear, resilience, personal narrative of fear, resilience, and the fight to be seen. Sloan provides and the fight to be seen. Sloan provides and the fight to be seen. Sloan provides unparalleled insights into her unparalleled insights into her unparalleled insights into her experiences, including candid leadership experiences, including candid leadership experiences, including candid leadership discussions about her identity with discussions about her identity with discussions about her identity with senior officials like former chairman of senior officials like former chairman of senior officials like former chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark

1:14 Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Millie. This episode is a vital listen Millie. This episode is a vital listen Millie. This episode is a vital listen that touches on a core of American that touches on a core of American that touches on a core of American principles. You can agree or disagree principles. You can agree or disagree principles. You can agree or disagree with an individual's personal life with an individual's personal life with an individual's personal life choices, but what cannot be debated is choices, but what cannot be debated is choices, but what cannot be debated is the freedom to live an authentic life. A

1:30 the freedom to live an authentic life. A the freedom to live an authentic life. A freedom that service members like Sloan freedom that service members like Sloan freedom that service members like Sloan have sworn an oath to protect for all of have sworn an oath to protect for all of have sworn an oath to protect for all of us. This is the human story behind the us. This is the human story behind the us. This is the human story behind the headlines. A story of service, identity, headlines. A story of service, identity, headlines. A story of service, identity, and the transformative power of living and the transformative power of living and the transformative power of living with courage. In this episode, you will

1:47 with courage. In this episode, you will with courage. In this episode, you will hear about the weight of dysphoria, hear about the weight of dysphoria, hear about the weight of dysphoria, a personal in-depth explanation of a personal in-depth explanation of a personal in-depth explanation of gender dysphoria and the lifelong gender dysphoria and the lifelong gender dysphoria and the lifelong journey to selfacceptance. journey to selfacceptance. journey to selfacceptance. You will also hear transitioning under You will also hear transitioning under You will also hear transitioning under pressure, the immense personal and pressure, the immense personal and

2:02 pressure, the immense personal and professional challenges of transitioning professional challenges of transitioning professional challenges of transitioning as a senior leader in the US military. as a senior leader in the US military. as a senior leader in the US military. also leadership and acceptance, candid also leadership and acceptance, candid also leadership and acceptance, candid stories of interacting with top military stories of interacting with top military stories of interacting with top military leaders like General Millie, and about leaders like General Millie, and about leaders like General Millie, and about being a transgender service member, the being a transgender service member, the

2:17 being a transgender service member, the power of storytelling, why sharing power of storytelling, why sharing power of storytelling, why sharing personal narratives is the most powerful personal narratives is the most powerful personal narratives is the most powerful tool to break down barriers and foster tool to break down barriers and foster tool to break down barriers and foster understanding in a divided world, and understanding in a divided world, and understanding in a divided world, and last, a life in EOD, an inside look at a last, a life in EOD, an inside look at a last, a life in EOD, an inside look at a distinguished career in one of distinguished career in one of

2:33 distinguished career in one of military's most dangerous and respected military's most dangerous and respected military's most dangerous and respected fields. fields. fields. Join us for a profound and necessary Join us for a profound and necessary Join us for a profound and necessary conversation that stands as a testament conversation that stands as a testament conversation that stands as a testament to courage and the fundamental to courage and the fundamental to courage and the fundamental importance of supporting every importance of supporting every importance of supporting every individual who takes an oath to serve. individual who takes an oath to serve.

2:50 individual who takes an oath to serve. First off, Sloan, I want to thank you so First off, Sloan, I want to thank you so First off, Sloan, I want to thank you so much for coming over here. I know that much for coming over here. I know that much for coming over here. I know that this is such a controversial topic in this is such a controversial topic in this is such a controversial topic in our world, particularly in the military. our world, particularly in the military. our world, particularly in the military. And as I was preparing for you to come And as I was preparing for you to come And as I was preparing for you to come over here, I was thinking of some of my

3:07 over here, I was thinking of some of my over here, I was thinking of some of my own experiences growing up as a young as own experiences growing up as a young as own experiences growing up as a young as a young man. Um, I grew up in a very a young man. Um, I grew up in a very a young man. Um, I grew up in a very religious family and uh, homophobia was religious family and uh, homophobia was religious family and uh, homophobia was a big part of our culture. So, I grew up a big part of our culture. So, I grew up a big part of our culture. So, I grew up fearful of people different than me, fearful of people different than me, fearful of people different than me, whether that was a sexual orientation or

3:28 whether that was a sexual orientation or whether that was a sexual orientation or looking different than me. Um, I don't looking different than me. Um, I don't looking different than me. Um, I don't blame my parents. I know that it was blame my parents. I know that it was blame my parents. I know that it was just ignorance in general. Um, just ignorance in general. Um, just ignorance in general. Um, but it took me living in Las Vegas. Um, but it took me living in Las Vegas. Um, but it took me living in Las Vegas. Um, I was at the Walmart grocery store and I was at the Walmart grocery store and I was at the Walmart grocery store and there was a very large muscular man in

3:48 there was a very large muscular man in there was a very large muscular man in heels and a wig and a halter top and um heels and a wig and a halter top and um heels and a wig and a halter top and um and a skirt and it really made me feel and a skirt and it really made me feel and a skirt and it really made me feel uncomfortable. Um, so I started to do uncomfortable. Um, so I started to do uncomfortable. Um, so I started to do some research about it and I found out some research about it and I found out some research about it and I found out that there was a retired Navy Seal that that there was a retired Navy Seal that that there was a retired Navy Seal that lived in Las Vegas and he was kind of a

4:06 lived in Las Vegas and he was kind of a lived in Las Vegas and he was kind of a spokesperson for the community and I spokesperson for the community and I spokesperson for the community and I just started educating myself on it and just started educating myself on it and just started educating myself on it and um, um, um, but it took that critical thought to to but it took that critical thought to to but it took that critical thought to to research and try to find out and research and try to find out and research and try to find out and understand. understand. understand. So in in your world, how do you or how So in in your world, how do you or how So in in your world, how do you or how do we

4:26 do we do we educate that Mike from 15 years ago? H educate that Mike from 15 years ago? H educate that Mike from 15 years ago? H how do we go about doing that? how do we go about doing that? how do we go about doing that? >> Yeah. Well, all right. So, Mike, let's >> Yeah. Well, all right. So, Mike, let's >> Yeah. Well, all right. So, Mike, let's just uh begin with the thank yous just uh begin with the thank yous just uh begin with the thank yous mutually, right? I um I'm so flattered mutually, right? I um I'm so flattered mutually, right? I um I'm so flattered that um you'd asked me to sit down with that um you'd asked me to sit down with that um you'd asked me to sit down with you and um

4:44 you and um you and um I I what I want to highlight is a word I I what I want to highlight is a word I I what I want to highlight is a word in all of those that you just said in all of those that you just said in all of those that you just said leading up to your question and that is leading up to your question and that is leading up to your question and that is the word fear. And I and I think we need the word fear. And I and I think we need the word fear. And I and I think we need to come back to that word over the to come back to that word over the to come back to that word over the course of this conversation because, you course of this conversation because, you

5:00 course of this conversation because, you know, misunderstandings know, misunderstandings know, misunderstandings generally generally generally um can be rooted deeply in fear and um um can be rooted deeply in fear and um um can be rooted deeply in fear and um fear of the unknown especially. And so I fear of the unknown especially. And so I fear of the unknown especially. And so I think what you're doing here is think what you're doing here is think what you're doing here is contributing to contributing to contributing to exactly the question that you've asked, exactly the question that you've asked, exactly the question that you've asked, the how. And the how is

5:29 make those people that folks make those people that folks misunderstand and maybe even fear more misunderstand and maybe even fear more misunderstand and maybe even fear more accessible like on a personal level. accessible like on a personal level. accessible like on a personal level. And that's some of what we're doing um And that's some of what we're doing um And that's some of what we're doing um in order to kind of you know gain some in order to kind of you know gain some in order to kind of you know gain some reach and um reach and um reach and um you know give folks a resource that you know give folks a resource that you know give folks a resource that didn't exist when you had that

5:49 didn't exist when you had that didn't exist when you had that experience or when I was growing up you experience or when I was growing up you experience or when I was growing up you know thinking about um know thinking about um know thinking about um what was going on with me. what was going on with me. what was going on with me. um a theme for trying to make um a theme for trying to make um a theme for trying to make um um um more accessible, right? Some real more accessible, right? Some real more accessible, right? Some real stories around You know, before we came in in our kind You know, before we came in in our kind of green room time, of green room time, of green room time, couple thoughts that we sort of, you couple thoughts that we sort of, you couple thoughts that we sort of, you know, put out there on the kitchen know, put out there on the kitchen

6:25 know, put out there on the kitchen counter. counter. counter. um um um but you know one of those but you know one of those but you know one of those ideas and thoughts ideas and thoughts ideas and thoughts is around um well I'll be quite honest with around um well I'll be quite honest with you this is probably going to be a place you this is probably going to be a place you this is probably going to be a place where you do some edits right cuz I'm where you do some edits right cuz I'm where you do some edits right cuz I'm I'm kind of losing my train of thought a I'm kind of losing my train of thought a I'm kind of losing my train of thought a little bit here um

6:49 little bit here um little bit here um let me tell the story this way let me let me tell the story this way let me let me tell the story this way let me say it this way right people say it this way right people say it this way right people who want who want who want to understand more, have an opportunity to understand more, have an opportunity to understand more, have an opportunity to interact with those that they can

07:00 Transitioning Under Public Scrutiny and Policy Debate

7:05 to interact with those that they can to interact with those that they can learn from in order to grow or to learn from in order to grow or to learn from in order to grow or to address fears that they have. And address fears that they have. And address fears that they have. And regrettably, regrettably, regrettably, out in the public domain right now, um, out in the public domain right now, um, out in the public domain right now, um, a lot of the misunderstanding around a lot of the misunderstanding around a lot of the misunderstanding around transgender people in America is being transgender people in America is being transgender people in America is being driven by fear. Now, I don't want to

7:23 driven by fear. Now, I don't want to driven by fear. Now, I don't want to have any political discussions. I mean, have any political discussions. I mean, have any political discussions. I mean, that's, you know, that's really not um that's, you know, that's really not um that's, you know, that's really not um what I want our focus to be here today what I want our focus to be here today what I want our focus to be here today in our conversation. in our conversation. in our conversation. But it's it's hard not to kind of avoid But it's it's hard not to kind of avoid But it's it's hard not to kind of avoid at least approaching those issues at least approaching those issues

7:38 at least approaching those issues because we're in a time where, you know, because we're in a time where, you know, because we're in a time where, you know, the future for transgender Americans the future for transgender Americans the future for transgender Americans um is soon to kind of, you know, be um is soon to kind of, you know, be um is soon to kind of, you know, be determined determined determined based on how our presidential election based on how our presidential election based on how our presidential election unfolds over the next few weeks. Notice unfolds over the next few weeks. Notice unfolds over the next few weeks. Notice I didn't say the next week. Mhm.

7:55 I didn't say the next week. Mhm. I didn't say the next week. Mhm. >> It's going to be a little bit I'm sure >> It's going to be a little bit I'm sure >> It's going to be a little bit I'm sure there'll be stop the steel and lots of there'll be stop the steel and lots of there'll be stop the steel and lots of discussions about court mandates and discussions about court mandates and discussions about court mandates and recounts and so it's going to be a recounts and so it's going to be a recounts and so it's going to be a while. while. while. >> Yeah. But the way that I um kind of >> Yeah. But the way that I um kind of >> Yeah. But the way that I um kind of intend to approach sharing my story, not

8:11 intend to approach sharing my story, not intend to approach sharing my story, not just here, but in time as I've grown just here, but in time as I've grown just here, but in time as I've grown more comfortable in myself and in um more comfortable in myself and in um more comfortable in myself and in um really grasping what I think the most really grasping what I think the most really grasping what I think the most important narratives are in order to important narratives are in order to important narratives are in order to help real people understand what real help real people understand what real help real people understand what real life is for a real human like me.

8:29 life is for a real human like me. life is for a real human like me. And I kind of go back to like, you know, And I kind of go back to like, you know, And I kind of go back to like, you know, mainstream artist Chapel Ron. Like she mainstream artist Chapel Ron. Like she mainstream artist Chapel Ron. Like she is probably one of the um most um is probably one of the um most um is probably one of the um most um fastest growing pop phenomenons fastest growing pop phenomenons fastest growing pop phenomenons uh in in um uh in in um uh in in um you know, in our time right now. And you you know, in our time right now. And you you know, in our time right now. And you know, she she's a member of the queer

8:50 know, she she's a member of the queer know, she she's a member of the queer community. I think she is her energy and community. I think she is her energy and community. I think she is her energy and and her vibe is so fantastic. But, you and her vibe is so fantastic. But, you and her vibe is so fantastic. But, you know, she did an interview with Jimmy know, she did an interview with Jimmy know, she did an interview with Jimmy Fallon that um left such an impression Fallon that um left such an impression Fallon that um left such an impression on me and and what Fallon drew out in on me and and what Fallon drew out in on me and and what Fallon drew out in that interview was um what what Chapel

9:06 that interview was um what what Chapel that interview was um what what Chapel Ron's kind of been talked about as um Ron's kind of been talked about as um Ron's kind of been talked about as um and you know she's your favorite and you know she's your favorite and you know she's your favorite artist's favorite artist, but that was artist's favorite artist, but that was artist's favorite artist, but that was derived from um a quote that Chapel derived from um a quote that Chapel derived from um a quote that Chapel attributes to Sasha Kby who's one of um attributes to Sasha Kby who's one of um attributes to Sasha Kby who's one of um you know the most renowned and and and

9:25 you know the most renowned and and and you know the most renowned and and and beautiful drag queens and performers and beautiful drag queens and performers and beautiful drag queens and performers and artists like in the world and and Sasha artists like in the world and and Sasha artists like in the world and and Sasha having kind of grown up in the drag having kind of grown up in the drag having kind of grown up in the drag community and you know um become world community and you know um become world community and you know um become world famous um had had someone kind of apply famous um had had someone kind of apply famous um had had someone kind of apply the moniker of being your favorite drag

9:43 the moniker of being your favorite drag the moniker of being your favorite drag queen's favorite drag queen to her. So queen's favorite drag queen to her. So queen's favorite drag queen to her. So to me, you know, my approach about to me, you know, my approach about to me, you know, my approach about storytelling, you know, around storytelling, you know, around storytelling, you know, around what my experience is like in order to what my experience is like in order to what my experience is like in order to make it accessible to other people is, make it accessible to other people is, make it accessible to other people is, you know, I want to be your favorite

9:57 you know, I want to be your favorite you know, I want to be your favorite person's favorite trans person. person's favorite trans person. person's favorite trans person. I'm glad you bring up storytelling. Um, I'm glad you bring up storytelling. Um, I'm glad you bring up storytelling. Um, I'm reading a bunch of books on I'm reading a bunch of books on I'm reading a bunch of books on storytelling and and narrative and storytelling and and narrative and storytelling and and narrative and society always tries to convince people society always tries to convince people society always tries to convince people through data, through spreadsheets, through data, through spreadsheets, through data, through spreadsheets, percentages, charts, you name it. But percentages, charts, you name it. But percentages, charts, you name it. But when it comes down to it, it's the story

10:20 when it comes down to it, it's the story when it comes down to it, it's the story that allows us to understand and that allows us to understand and that allows us to understand and remember these differences uh going remember these differences uh going remember these differences uh going forward because before language was forward because before language was forward because before language was written, it was through stories. written, it was through stories. written, it was through stories. And so as you mentioned that, it makes And so as you mentioned that, it makes And so as you mentioned that, it makes me think that yeah, here we're telling a

10:34 me think that yeah, here we're telling a me think that yeah, here we're telling a story uh to try and educate those uh in story uh to try and educate those uh in story uh to try and educate those uh in our small sphere of influence. But um as I think about your story, we were in as I think about your story, we were in NGBLL and we were having one of those NGBLL and we were having one of those NGBLL and we were having one of those weekly meetings and we had never really weekly meetings and we had never really weekly meetings and we had never really had a chance to chat much. But as I was had a chance to chat much. But as I was had a chance to chat much. But as I was listening to you, you were running a

10:57 listening to you, you were running a listening to you, you were running a meeting, you were talking on the phone, meeting, you were talking on the phone, meeting, you were talking on the phone, you were typing up emails, and I you were typing up emails, and I you were typing up emails, and I thought, Rosie, at the time, you called thought, Rosie, at the time, you called thought, Rosie, at the time, you called yourself Rosie. I was like, man, this yourself Rosie. I was like, man, this yourself Rosie. I was like, man, this guy's a rockstar. He he is managing so guy's a rockstar. He he is managing so guy's a rockstar. He he is managing so many different things at once. I was

11:09 many different things at once. I was many different things at once. I was very impressed with your ability in the very impressed with your ability in the very impressed with your ability in the legislative world. legislative world. legislative world. Can you talk us through what it was like Can you talk us through what it was like Can you talk us through what it was like to have to um come to terms and explain to have to um come to terms and explain to have to um come to terms and explain why you were going to be making the why you were going to be making the why you were going to be making the transition in that world? Yeah. Yeah. transition in that world? Yeah. Yeah. transition in that world? Yeah. Yeah. No, I absolutely can. Um No, I absolutely can. Um No, I absolutely can. Um so the way I so the way I so the way I have come to understand this right and

11:34 have come to understand this right and have come to understand this right and the way I talk about it right now is the way I talk about it right now is the way I talk about it right now is that you know and and let me preface that you know and and let me preface that you know and and let me preface with this comment right so thanks for with this comment right so thanks for with this comment right so thanks for all those really kind words but um all those really kind words but um all those really kind words but um I think the person you encountered at I think the person you encountered at I think the person you encountered at that moment that moment

11:49 that moment um um um was a service member and a senior leader was a service member and a senior leader was a service member and a senior leader [Music] with decades with decades of exceptional and honorable service of exceptional and honorable service of exceptional and honorable service under their belt I I think when we talk about the science I I think when we talk about the science around around around being transgender, there's not a ton out being transgender, there's not a ton out being transgender, there's not a ton out there. And there. And there. And that's not surprising, right? because that's not surprising, right? because that's not surprising, right? because you know when when

12:38 you know when when you know when when the medical community the medical community the medical community um um um applied very limited resources to issues applied very limited resources to issues applied very limited resources to issues of of of being transgender, being transgender, being transgender, being homosexual, like you know, and I being homosexual, like you know, and I being homosexual, like you know, and I don't speak to that history particularly don't speak to that history particularly don't speak to that history particularly well, but the point is right like well, but the point is right like well, but the point is right like there's not been a lot of like science

13:00 there's not been a lot of like science there's not been a lot of like science and research dollars like steered and research dollars like steered and research dollars like steered towards and focused on um what gender towards and focused on um what gender towards and focused on um what gender dysphoria is, how it originates. But dysphoria is, how it originates. But dysphoria is, how it originates. But what I can tell you is it's very real. what I can tell you is it's very real. what I can tell you is it's very real. And And And gender dysphoria is that, you know, gender dysphoria is that, you know, gender dysphoria is that, you know, disconnect between, at least as I

13:21 disconnect between, at least as I disconnect between, at least as I describe it, what I knew in my head, and describe it, what I knew in my head, and describe it, what I knew in my head, and my heart and how I existed in this my heart and how I existed in this my heart and how I existed in this world, how socially the world interacted world, how socially the world interacted world, how socially the world interacted with me, how physically my with me, how physically my with me, how physically my body was out of alignment with what I body was out of alignment with what I body was out of alignment with what I knew inside. knew inside. knew inside. And yeah, maybe someday, you know, we'll

13:40 And yeah, maybe someday, you know, we'll And yeah, maybe someday, you know, we'll get to a place where get to a place where get to a place where there is science that can back up what I there is science that can back up what I there is science that can back up what I know know know and you have seen manifest. and you have seen manifest. and you have seen manifest. Um, but what I will tell you is that right but what I will tell you is that right when you suffer from gender dysphoria, not everyone has the same levels of not everyone has the same levels of distress distress distress in that in congruence in that in congruence in that in congruence um between who they are and who they

14:13 um between who they are and who they um between who they are and who they need to be and and what those sources of need to be and and what those sources of need to be and and what those sources of distress are. very there is no checklist distress are. very there is no checklist distress are. very there is no checklist about being trans or how to transition. about being trans or how to transition. about being trans or how to transition. It's different in every situation and It's different in every situation and It's different in every situation and circumstance. circumstance. circumstance. But the but the other point just taking But the but the other point just taking But the but the other point just taking a a small step back that I want to make

14:33 a a small step back that I want to make a a small step back that I want to make is that like when you're trans when you is that like when you're trans when you is that like when you're trans when you are transgender and you suffer from are transgender and you suffer from are transgender and you suffer from gender dysphoria, gender dysphoria, gender dysphoria, that's not a choice. that's not a choice. that's not a choice. Like that that that is something that Like that that that is something that Like that that that is something that was inherent to me at birth. was inherent to me at birth. was inherent to me at birth. I didn't choose this. And you do get a few choices when you're

14:56 And you do get a few choices when you're trans, right? trans, right? trans, right? and and you know for me and and you know for me and and you know for me the gender dysphoria related distress the gender dysphoria related distress the gender dysphoria related distress that I have or had especially at the that I have or had especially at the that I have or had especially at the time when you and I first interacted uh time when you and I first interacted uh time when you and I first interacted uh to deal with on a day-to-day basis was to deal with on a day-to-day basis was to deal with on a day-to-day basis was so high I I I did not have a choice so high I I I did not have a choice

15:20 so high I I I did not have a choice about whether or not I would transition about whether or not I would transition about whether or not I would transition medically, medically, medically, socially, legally, administratively. socially, legally, administratively. socially, legally, administratively. It was just going to be a matter of how, It was just going to be a matter of how, It was just going to be a matter of how, when, and at what cost. So, our listeners don't know this, and I So, our listeners don't know this, and I should have started off with this. Uh, should have started off with this. Uh, should have started off with this. Uh, you're married with two two children.

15:46 you're married with two two children. you're married with two two children. What was that? What was that? What was that? Walk us through the experience of when Walk us through the experience of when Walk us through the experience of when did your spouse find out? When did you did your spouse find out? When did you did your spouse find out? When did you have that conversation? When did you have that conversation? When did you have that conversation? When did you decide decide decide that um this was going to this was going that um this was going to this was going that um this was going to this was going to happen because I'm sure to happen because I'm sure to happen because I'm sure Yeah. Okay. So, let me walk us down that

16:00 Leadership Scrutiny — When Command Watches You

16:06 Yeah. Okay. So, let me walk us down that Yeah. Okay. So, let me walk us down that path a little bit, right? path a little bit, right? path a little bit, right? I don't want to take too long a way I don't want to take too long a way I don't want to take too long a way around. around. around. But having But having But having feelings feelings feelings of having having feelings about having having feelings about having this in congruence having this in congruence having this in congruence in your gender identity and your gender in your gender identity and your gender in your gender identity and your gender expression, right? Gender identity what expression, right? Gender identity what expression, right? Gender identity what I know inside in my head and my heart. I know inside in my head and my heart. I know inside in my head and my heart. Expression being how I move through the

16:37 Expression being how I move through the Expression being how I move through the world world world and having distress that that drives and having distress that that drives and having distress that that drives that, right? So there's a long period of that, right? So there's a long period of that, right? So there's a long period of time where I knew there was a difference time where I knew there was a difference time where I knew there was a difference between between between my gender identity and my gender my gender identity and my gender my gender identity and my gender expression going way back. But the distress took a very long time But the distress took a very long time to reach a peak where my approach for

17:06 to reach a peak where my approach for to reach a peak where my approach for decades had been I am just going to decades had been I am just going to decades had been I am just going to outrun this outrun this outrun this and I can do it. and I can do it. and I can do it. >> So it's okay for me to get married >> So it's okay for me to get married >> So it's okay for me to get married because I'm just going to outgrow this. because I'm just going to outgrow this. because I'm just going to outgrow this. I'm going to outrun this. Is that is I'm going to outrun this. Is that is I'm going to outrun this. Is that is that what you mean? Yeah.

17:19 that what you mean? Yeah. that what you mean? Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean there were other >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean there were other >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean there were other aspects to it, right? But it was just aspects to it, right? But it was just aspects to it, right? But it was just like, you know, it wasn't it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't it wasn't something that was so central to who I something that was so central to who I something that was so central to who I was, right? And this is something that I was, right? And this is something that I was, right? And this is something that I discovered like at age 12 at least is

17:32 discovered like at age 12 at least is discovered like at age 12 at least is the most firm concrete memory where, as the most firm concrete memory where, as the most firm concrete memory where, as I say it, like I first expressed my I say it, like I first expressed my I say it, like I first expressed my realized gender. You know, parents and realized gender. You know, parents and realized gender. You know, parents and brother leave the home, I got the house brother leave the home, I got the house brother leave the home, I got the house to myself, and now I'm in mom's closet, to myself, and now I'm in mom's closet, to myself, and now I'm in mom's closet, and now I'm in the bathroom in her

17:47 and now I'm in the bathroom in her and now I'm in the bathroom in her makeup. and and and I'm looking in the makeup. and and and I'm looking in the makeup. and and and I'm looking in the mirror seeing something reflected back mirror seeing something reflected back mirror seeing something reflected back at me that is absolutely more consistent at me that is absolutely more consistent at me that is absolutely more consistent with how I feel inside. But you know with how I feel inside. But you know with how I feel inside. But you know that's 1986. The only sources that you have The only sources that you have like for information about what you're like for information about what you're

18:07 like for information about what you're experiencing, which the word transgender experiencing, which the word transgender experiencing, which the word transgender really wasn't even on the scene then. it really wasn't even on the scene then. it really wasn't even on the scene then. it was around crossdressers and was around crossdressers and was around crossdressers and transsexuals and and like you transsexuals and and like you transsexuals and and like you could watch, you know, those daytime could watch, you know, those daytime could watch, you know, those daytime talk shows. Um some of the the Mory talk shows. Um some of the the Mory talk shows. Um some of the the Mory Povit show, you know, probably the more Povit show, you know, probably the more Povit show, you know, probably the more um extreme, but maybe you see somebody um extreme, but maybe you see somebody

18:29 um extreme, but maybe you see somebody on Donahue, right? But that's it, you on Donahue, right? But that's it, you on Donahue, right? But that's it, you know. And and and where do parents of know. And and and where do parents of know. And and and where do parents of transgender children in that period turn transgender children in that period turn transgender children in that period turn to help a child that they discover to help a child that they discover to help a child that they discover is presenting in a way that is is presenting in a way that is is presenting in a way that is inconsistent with how they were assigned inconsistent with how they were assigned

18:47 inconsistent with how they were assigned at birth. Are your parents still alive? at birth. Are your parents still alive? at birth. Are your parents still alive? >> Uh my dad's passed. My mom is still with >> Uh my dad's passed. My mom is still with >> Uh my dad's passed. My mom is still with us. us. us. >> When did your mom know or have >> When did your mom know or have >> When did your mom know or have suspicions? Well, I mean, in that same suspicions? Well, I mean, in that same suspicions? Well, I mean, in that same period back in like '86, um, they came period back in like '86, um, they came period back in like '86, um, they came home early one time, so I had to dart in

19:04 home early one time, so I had to dart in home early one time, so I had to dart in the bathroom, the bathroom, the bathroom, get changed, but when the knocks came on get changed, but when the knocks came on get changed, but when the knocks came on the door to open up, I didn't have the the door to open up, I didn't have the the door to open up, I didn't have the makeup off my face. So, here I am trying makeup off my face. So, here I am trying makeup off my face. So, here I am trying to make the best, quickest excuse I can, to make the best, quickest excuse I can, to make the best, quickest excuse I can, you know, and it was to say, well, I, you know, and it was to say, well, I, you know, and it was to say, well, I, you know, I'm I'm I'm trying to, you you know, I'm I'm I'm trying to, you you know, I'm I'm I'm trying to, you know, be a clown. like I just I want to

19:26 know, be a clown. like I just I want to know, be a clown. like I just I want to see what that would be like see what that would be like see what that would be like >> is not what was going on in the leadup >> is not what was going on in the leadup >> is not what was going on in the leadup to that moment. to that moment. to that moment. >> My um my wife Heather, which you haven't >> My um my wife Heather, which you haven't >> My um my wife Heather, which you haven't met yet, um met yet, um met yet, um >> she's a she was a Radio City Rocket when >> she's a she was a Radio City Rocket when >> she's a she was a Radio City Rocket when we first met. And so she was performing

19:43 we first met. And so she was performing we first met. And so she was performing in that in that in that world. and she in that in that in that world. and she in that in that in that world. and she started sharing stories with homosexual started sharing stories with homosexual started sharing stories with homosexual men that she worked with and a lot of men that she worked with and a lot of men that she worked with and a lot of them were married them were married them were married had a a a coming out if you will and uh had a a a coming out if you will and uh had a a a coming out if you will and uh some of them dissolve the marriages some of them dissolve the marriages

19:59 some of them dissolve the marriages right and I I wonder if this is a common right and I I wonder if this is a common right and I I wonder if this is a common theme that you think you will outgrow theme that you think you will outgrow theme that you think you will outgrow outrun as you described as you described outrun as you described as you described outrun as you described as you described that experience that experience that experience >> well here's here's what can happen >> well here's here's what can happen >> well here's here's what can happen differently right and I think some of it is happening and I think some of it is happening differently, right? Is our society is

20:17 differently, right? Is our society is differently, right? Is our society is progressing, you know, here in America progressing, you know, here in America progressing, you know, here in America specifically and especially in certain specifically and especially in certain specifically and especially in certain states and and and and and places in our states and and and and and places in our states and and and and and places in our country country country where there's just more acceptance. Um where there's just more acceptance. Um where there's just more acceptance. Um there's more understanding, there's less there's more understanding, there's less

20:30 there's more understanding, there's less fear. And um fear. And um fear. And um so now we're in a time right that's so now we're in a time right that's so now we're in a time right that's different than our generation as we grew different than our generation as we grew different than our generation as we grew up where kids um have an opportunity to up where kids um have an opportunity to up where kids um have an opportunity to work with their parents and medical work with their parents and medical work with their parents and medical providers um to address their gender providers um to address their gender providers um to address their gender dysphoria and dysphoria and

20:50 dysphoria and access medical care both you know for access medical care both you know for access medical care both you know for their physical health but as well as you their physical health but as well as you their physical health but as well as you know their mental, emotional, spiritual know their mental, emotional, spiritual know their mental, emotional, spiritual wellbeing. um that can put them on a wellbeing. um that can put them on a wellbeing. um that can put them on a path that would be very different from path that would be very different from path that would be very different from mine where they don't have to put off mine where they don't have to put off

21:05 mine where they don't have to put off what they know at that young age until what they know at that young age until what they know at that young age until they get to a place like I did where they get to a place like I did where they get to a place like I did where I'm, you know, 50 and I'm I'm having I'm, you know, 50 and I'm I'm having I'm, you know, 50 and I'm I'm having experiences that have pushed me past a experiences that have pushed me past a experiences that have pushed me past a threshold threshold threshold um that will demand, like I said, um um that will demand, like I said, um um that will demand, like I said, um transitioning transitioning

21:26 transitioning as a military officer and you me you as a military officer and you me you as a military officer and you me you mentioned EOD. H how did you come about mentioned EOD. H how did you come about mentioned EOD. H how did you come about choosing EOD? Is it like this is a choosing EOD? Is it like this is a choosing EOD? Is it like this is a badass job so nobody will suspect that I badass job so nobody will suspect that I badass job so nobody will suspect that I have any sort of gender dysmorphia that have any sort of gender dysmorphia that have any sort of gender dysmorphia that you mentioned? How did EOD come? you mentioned? How did EOD come?

21:42 you mentioned? How did EOD come? >> Right. Well, I don't know if I would say >> Right. Well, I don't know if I would say >> Right. Well, I don't know if I would say dysmorphia, right? dysmorphia, right? dysmorphia, right? >> Is that is that the wrong term? I >> Is that is that the wrong term? I >> Is that is that the wrong term? I >> Well, where where someone wouldn't um >> Well, where where someone wouldn't um >> Well, where where someone wouldn't um recognize that you're transgender, recognize that you're transgender, recognize that you're transgender, right? And like Okay. So, I enlisted in

21:54 right? And like Okay. So, I enlisted in right? And like Okay. So, I enlisted in December 1991, December 1991, December 1991, 17 years old. I had to have had mom like 17 years old. I had to have had mom like 17 years old. I had to have had mom like sign my enlistment papers um into the sign my enlistment papers um into the sign my enlistment papers um into the 102nd Fighter ring of the Massachusetts 102nd Fighter ring of the Massachusetts 102nd Fighter ring of the Massachusetts Air National Guard when they were flying Air National Guard when they were flying Air National Guard when they were flying F-15s and um F-15s and um F-15s and um formative experience but this is this is

22:10 formative experience but this is this is formative experience but this is this is actually kind of a ridiculous story but actually kind of a ridiculous story but actually kind of a ridiculous story but let's let's make sure we come back to let's let's make sure we come back to let's let's make sure we come back to your point right because there were your point right because there were your point right because there were absolutely choices that I made absolutely choices that I made absolutely choices that I made that I considered to be overcompensation that I considered to be overcompensation that I considered to be overcompensation for what I didn't understand didn't have

22:27 for what I didn't understand didn't have for what I didn't understand didn't have the words to describe but felt if that the words to describe but felt if that the words to describe but felt if that makes sense. Right? So, okay, but here's makes sense. Right? So, okay, but here's makes sense. Right? So, okay, but here's the real story about how I get into EOD. the real story about how I get into EOD. the real story about how I get into EOD. So, um So, um So, um so my senior year of high school, I'm in so my senior year of high school, I'm in so my senior year of high school, I'm in the Civil Air Patrol. We're in a the Civil Air Patrol. We're in a

22:40 the Civil Air Patrol. We're in a squadron that is based out of an Army squadron that is based out of an Army squadron that is based out of an Army Reserve Armory in Totten, Massachusetts. Reserve Armory in Totten, Massachusetts. Reserve Armory in Totten, Massachusetts. Uh got involved with that uh through Uh got involved with that uh through Uh got involved with that uh through some friends that I met in junior high some friends that I met in junior high some friends that I met in junior high school and and kind of, you know, became school and and kind of, you know, became school and and kind of, you know, became really close with in high school. And really close with in high school. And

22:54 really close with in high school. And and in fact, these are guys that were and in fact, these are guys that were and in fact, these are guys that were part of um a group of the people that part of um a group of the people that part of um a group of the people that I've known longest, like probably in I've known longest, like probably in I've known longest, like probably in this group of friends, like the guy I've this group of friends, like the guy I've this group of friends, like the guy I've known longest. Um he and I met at the known longest. Um he and I met at the known longest. Um he and I met at the front door of the school bus at the end front door of the school bus at the end

23:07 front door of the school bus at the end of the first day of kindergarten. of the first day of kindergarten. of the first day of kindergarten. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> And we've been friends ever since. >> And we've been friends ever since. >> And we've been friends ever since. Right. But um he and a he and a group of Right. But um he and a he and a group of Right. But um he and a he and a group of these guys that we've all been close to these guys that we've all been close to these guys that we've all been close to over all these years were in Key West, over all these years were in Key West, over all these years were in Key West, Florida back in April and they got to

23:19 Florida back in April and they got to Florida back in April and they got to meet me as me for the first time, some meet me as me for the first time, some meet me as me for the first time, some of them. And um of them. And um of them. And um >> and how was the experience? >> and how was the experience? >> and how was the experience? >> Exceptional. It was great. Yeah. And >> Exceptional. It was great. Yeah. And >> Exceptional. It was great. Yeah. And that guy was one of the two people who that guy was one of the two people who that guy was one of the two people who drove me off to the airport when I had drove me off to the airport when I had drove me off to the airport when I had to um you know uh back here to DC a to um you know uh back here to DC a to um you know uh back here to DC a little earlier than intended for this

23:38 little earlier than intended for this little earlier than intended for this trip with them. Um, and that guy is one trip with them. Um, and that guy is one trip with them. Um, and that guy is one of the guys that gave me a hug on the of the guys that gave me a hug on the of the guys that gave me a hug on the curb as I walked into the airport at Key curb as I walked into the airport at Key curb as I walked into the airport at Key West to come back north. Right. So, um, West to come back north. Right. So, um, West to come back north. Right. So, um, but this EOD thing, right? So crazy. So but this EOD thing, right? So crazy. So but this EOD thing, right? So crazy. So that guy among other friends, we're in

23:54 that guy among other friends, we're in that guy among other friends, we're in Civil Air Patrol. There's a guy in the Civil Air Patrol. There's a guy in the Civil Air Patrol. There's a guy in the Civil Air Patrol whose last name is also Civil Air Patrol whose last name is also Civil Air Patrol whose last name is also Rose, no relation. Rose, no relation. Rose, no relation. And he's a member of the 102nd Fire Wing And he's a member of the 102nd Fire Wing And he's a member of the 102nd Fire Wing of the Master National Guard. of the Master National Guard. of the Master National Guard. >> I didn't realize you started off Air >> I didn't realize you started off Air

24:05 >> I didn't realize you started off Air National Guard or the Civil Air Patrol National Guard or the Civil Air Patrol National Guard or the Civil Air Patrol thing before you. and I'm trans. thing before you. and I'm trans. thing before you. and I'm trans. Surprise. Surprise. Surprise. >> So, so Lenny Rose, Lenny Rose, he um so >> So, so Lenny Rose, Lenny Rose, he um so >> So, so Lenny Rose, Lenny Rose, he um so he's in the wing and he knew I need like he's in the wing and he knew I need like he's in the wing and he knew I need like I I was trying to find a way to pay for I I was trying to find a way to pay for I I was trying to find a way to pay for college and I knew like the guard was

24:23 college and I knew like the guard was college and I knew like the guard was probably going to be the best approach probably going to be the best approach probably going to be the best approach because like in many states at the time because like in many states at the time because like in many states at the time like we had the tuition waiverss for the like we had the tuition waiverss for the like we had the tuition waiverss for the state universities and colleges. Um so state universities and colleges. Um so state universities and colleges. Um so Lenny says, "Hey, listen like I know you Lenny says, "Hey, listen like I know you Lenny says, "Hey, listen like I know you don't have a car. Hop in with me. Come

24:35 don't have a car. Hop in with me. Come don't have a car. Hop in with me. Come on down to the wing. I'll introduce you on down to the wing. I'll introduce you on down to the wing. I'll introduce you to, you know, some of the guys in um in to, you know, some of the guys in um in to, you know, some of the guys in um in my shop and he was a munitions loader. my shop and he was a munitions loader. my shop and he was a munitions loader. Now, Lamb was a pretty scrawny, skinny Now, Lamb was a pretty scrawny, skinny Now, Lamb was a pretty scrawny, skinny guy and I wasn't I was about the same guy and I wasn't I was about the same guy and I wasn't I was about the same stature and build at the time and um so

24:50 stature and build at the time and um so stature and build at the time and um so he's like, "All right, hey, let me he's like, "All right, hey, let me he's like, "All right, hey, let me introduce you around and um you meet all introduce you around and um you meet all introduce you around and um you meet all these guys and what do I know?" I mean, these guys and what do I know?" I mean, these guys and what do I know?" I mean, this is like the leadup to when I enlist this is like the leadup to when I enlist this is like the leadup to when I enlist in December of 1991. in December of 1991. in December of 1991. I'm like, "Well, buddy, that looks good. I'm like, "Well, buddy, that looks good.

25:03 I'm like, "Well, buddy, that looks good. Sounds great. Sign me up." cuz I'm Sounds great. Sign me up." cuz I'm Sounds great. Sign me up." cuz I'm thinking like, okay, I don't have a car, thinking like, okay, I don't have a car, thinking like, okay, I don't have a car, so then I can get a ride and then I can so then I can get a ride and then I can so then I can get a ride and then I can hang with somebody I know, so this could hang with somebody I know, so this could hang with somebody I know, so this could work out pretty well. This could be work out pretty well. This could be work out pretty well. This could be cool. Um, cool. Um, cool. Um, so so so I can't remember if it was weeks or or a I can't remember if it was weeks or or a I can't remember if it was weeks or or a month later, Lenny approaches me again month later, Lenny approaches me again

25:22 month later, Lenny approaches me again before I actually enlist and he goes, before I actually enlist and he goes, before I actually enlist and he goes, "You know what? I'm actually going to "You know what? I'm actually going to "You know what? I'm actually going to change my AFSA, my Air Force specialty change my AFSA, my Air Force specialty change my AFSA, my Air Force specialty code. Um, I'm going to move into this code. Um, I'm going to move into this code. Um, I'm going to move into this thing called EOD." And I'm like, "What's thing called EOD." And I'm like, "What's thing called EOD." And I'm like, "What's that?" He's like, "Oh, explosive that?" He's like, "Oh, explosive

25:34 that?" He's like, "Oh, explosive ordinance disposal." ordinance disposal." ordinance disposal." Oh, all right. Well, can I do that with Oh, all right. Well, can I do that with Oh, all right. Well, can I do that with you? He's like, "Wow, we do have an you? He's like, "Wow, we do have an you? He's like, "Wow, we do have an opening like in the flight, but you'd opening like in the flight, but you'd opening like in the flight, but you'd have to come down and get interviewed." have to come down and get interviewed." have to come down and get interviewed." Okay, no problem. So, same draw. Go down Okay, no problem. So, same draw. Go down Okay, no problem. So, same draw. Go down to the wing, meet the team.

25:50 to the wing, meet the team. to the wing, meet the team. And some of these NCOs's I mean like you And some of these NCOs's I mean like you And some of these NCOs's I mean like you know formative experiences of my life know formative experiences of my life know formative experiences of my life spent like being raised by these EOD spent like being raised by these EOD spent like being raised by these EOD NCOs and the retirees that our presence

26:00 The Cost of Authenticity in a Rank Structure

26:03 NCOs and the retirees that our presence NCOs and the retirees that our presence on Cape Cod would attract cuz EOD is on Cape Cod would attract cuz EOD is on Cape Cod would attract cuz EOD is just one of those communities where once just one of those communities where once just one of those communities where once you become a part of it you're always a you become a part of it you're always a you become a part of it you're always a part of it. Um, so Lenny has me meet the part of it. Um, so Lenny has me meet the part of it. Um, so Lenny has me meet the flight chief and you know his number two flight chief and you know his number two flight chief and you know his number two and we're walking around in the shop and

26:18 and we're walking around in the shop and and we're walking around in the shop and I'm like, "Wow, there's robots, there's I'm like, "Wow, there's robots, there's I'm like, "Wow, there's robots, there's guns, look at this cool high-speed guns, look at this cool high-speed guns, look at this cool high-speed gear." And um, so after they've kind of gear." And um, so after they've kind of gear." And um, so after they've kind of put the sales pitch on, they're like, put the sales pitch on, they're like, put the sales pitch on, they're like, "All right, we'll come back into our "All right, we'll come back into our "All right, we'll come back into our training room and let's sit down and

26:31 training room and let's sit down and training room and let's sit down and just have a conversation." And you know, just have a conversation." And you know, just have a conversation." And you know, it was this tight little conference room it was this tight little conference room it was this tight little conference room space and and it and it's filled the space and and it and it's filled the space and and it and it's filled the walls are just covered and the floors walls are just covered and the floors walls are just covered and the floors freestanding on the floor is covered freestanding on the floor is covered freestanding on the floor is covered with um andor

26:45 with um andor with um andor ordinance. ordinance. ordinance. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so what do I do? >> And so what do I do? >> And so what do I do? The awkward The awkward The awkward person that I was at age 17. I go to sit person that I was at age 17. I go to sit person that I was at age 17. I go to sit down in this chair. Somehow I slip back, down in this chair. Somehow I slip back, down in this chair. Somehow I slip back, lean back, and now I have knocked over lean back, and now I have knocked over lean back, and now I have knocked over like shelf upon punch. like shelf upon punch. like shelf upon punch. [Music] I'm like, "Oh, all right. Guess I blew I'm like, "Oh, all right. Guess I blew it." Needless to say, I didn't. Um, it." Needless to say, I didn't. Um, it." Needless to say, I didn't. Um, they took me in and um

27:18 they took me in and um they took me in and um I brought those listing papers home to I brought those listing papers home to I brought those listing papers home to my mom and my mom's like, "Do you know my mom and my mom's like, "Do you know my mom and my mom's like, "Do you know what you're getting into?" what you're getting into?" what you're getting into?" I'm like, "I don't know. Lenny's doing I'm like, "I don't know. Lenny's doing I'm like, "I don't know. Lenny's doing it." it." it." you know, I finished high school, went you know, I finished high school, went you know, I finished high school, went off to basic training, went off to EOD off to basic training, went off to EOD off to basic training, went off to EOD school, and um graduated from um Indian Head, Maryland, which in EOD Indian Head, Maryland, which in EOD circles is um the legacy location for

27:43 circles is um the legacy location for circles is um the legacy location for the EOD school. So, to have been an the EOD school. So, to have been an the EOD school. So, to have been an Indian head graduate in April of 1993 Indian head graduate in April of 1993 Indian head graduate in April of 1993 makes me probably one of the oldest EOD makes me probably one of the oldest EOD makes me probably one of the oldest EOD tech still on active diversity right tech still on active diversity right tech still on active diversity right now. now. now. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. when during that EOD process, when

27:58 >> Yeah. when during that EOD process, when >> Yeah. when during that EOD process, when did you switch over to the to the army? did you switch over to the to the army? did you switch over to the to the army? >> Yeah, so I did that in December of 2005. >> Yeah, so I did that in December of 2005. >> Yeah, so I did that in December of 2005. So I went to Iraq uh summer 2004, came So I went to Iraq uh summer 2004, came So I went to Iraq uh summer 2004, came back like you know winter 2005 as an back like you know winter 2005 as an back like you know winter 2005 as an airman. Um, we had a a flight at Baghdad airman. Um, we had a a flight at Baghdad airman. Um, we had a a flight at Baghdad International Airport and um

28:23 this was before this was before the army had the army had the army had grown uh its EOD capability uh to the grown uh its EOD capability uh to the grown uh its EOD capability uh to the configuration and size uh force that it configuration and size uh force that it configuration and size uh force that it needed to be to tackle the counter ID needed to be to tackle the counter ID needed to be to tackle the counter ID fight in um the kinds of contingency fight in um the kinds of contingency fight in um the kinds of contingency operations that we you know found operations that we you know found operations that we you know found ourselves involved in. uh relative to

28:41 ourselves involved in. uh relative to ourselves involved in. uh relative to counterinsurgency, right? So um so in counterinsurgency, right? So um so in counterinsurgency, right? So um so in 2004 what you had is like 2004 what you had is like 2004 what you had is like in western Baghdad out there at Baghdad in western Baghdad out there at Baghdad in western Baghdad out there at Baghdad International Airport um adjacent to it International Airport um adjacent to it International Airport um adjacent to it was Camp Victory big massive complex was Camp Victory big massive complex was Camp Victory big massive complex that surrounded one of Saddam's old

28:58 that surrounded one of Saddam's old that surrounded one of Saddam's old palaces out there by the airport and um palaces out there by the airport and um palaces out there by the airport and um and so you had an army company that was and so you had an army company that was and so you had an army company that was configured in the old legacy fashion and configured in the old legacy fashion and configured in the old legacy fashion and um so here they are aligned with an army um so here they are aligned with an army um so here they are aligned with an army division that's got three brigade big division that's got three brigade big division that's got three brigade big combat teams that are conducting

29:15 combat teams that are conducting combat teams that are conducting counterinsurgency operations all over counterinsurgency operations all over counterinsurgency operations all over western Baghdad out to like the western Baghdad out to like the western Baghdad out to like the Euphrates River, forgive me if I've got Euphrates River, forgive me if I've got Euphrates River, forgive me if I've got the um geography wrong, right? but to the um geography wrong, right? but to the um geography wrong, right? but to the west and um the west and um the west and um it was too much, you know. So there had it was too much, you know. So there had it was too much, you know. So there had been handshake agreements between the been handshake agreements between the been handshake agreements between the Air Force flight over on the airfield that I took over

29:38 over on the airfield that I took over the leadership for the leadership for the leadership for together with um Kenny Mccclure, extraordinary senior NCO Kenny Mccclure, extraordinary senior NCO who um when you have to stop drinking on who um when you have to stop drinking on who um when you have to stop drinking on a deployment but you decide to stop a deployment but you decide to stop a deployment but you decide to stop smoking at the same time. smoking at the same time. smoking at the same time. >> Angry angry person. >> Angry angry person. >> Angry angry person. >> Yes. But we got through it and I learned >> Yes. But we got through it and I learned

29:59 >> Yes. But we got through it and I learned so much from him. Um, and I just he's so much from him. Um, and I just he's so much from him. Um, and I just he's just an extraordinary human being. Um, just an extraordinary human being. Um, just an extraordinary human being. Um, but on the handshake agreement, right? but on the handshake agreement, right? but on the handshake agreement, right? So then I had to go as a, you know, So then I had to go as a, you know, So then I had to go as a, you know, company grade officer to go talk to my company grade officer to go talk to my company grade officer to go talk to my civil engineering squadron commander and

30:12 civil engineering squadron commander and civil engineering squadron commander and say, "Hey, look, sir, you've talked to say, "Hey, look, sir, you've talked to say, "Hey, look, sir, you've talked to your predecessor. I've talked to mine. your predecessor. I've talked to mine. your predecessor. I've talked to mine. We're both here now. And We're both here now. And We're both here now. And I don't think we can just sit on this I don't think we can just sit on this I don't think we can just sit on this airfield airfield airfield cuz there are men and women out there cuz there are men and women out there cuz there are men and women out there that are dying at the hands of this

30:26 that are dying at the hands of this that are dying at the hands of this threat. And there's a collection of threat. And there's a collection of threat. And there's a collection of teammates out here who um teammates out here who um teammates out here who um have got have got have got some natural-born talents best training and equipment in the best training and equipment in the world. world. world. and and we need to be in this. We can't and and we need to be in this. We can't and and we need to be in this. We can't watch it just we can't stand by and just watch it just we can't stand by and just watch it just we can't stand by and just watch it happen.

30:52 watch it happen. watch it happen. >> So the air force guys were staying kind >> So the air force guys were staying kind >> So the air force guys were staying kind of behind the wire and the army guys of behind the wire and the army guys of behind the wire and the army guys were more active or were more active or were more active or >> well I mean that is by doctrine like >> well I mean that is by doctrine like >> well I mean that is by doctrine like what was supposed to happen. We were what was supposed to happen. We were what was supposed to happen. We were supposed to take care of the airfield supposed to take care of the airfield

31:01 supposed to take care of the airfield and and the army is supposed to be, you and and the army is supposed to be, you and and the army is supposed to be, you know, out with the maneuver forces. And know, out with the maneuver forces. And know, out with the maneuver forces. And what we ended up doing is what we ended up doing is what we ended up doing is squadron commander gave me top cover and squadron commander gave me top cover and squadron commander gave me top cover and um we essentially um we essentially um we essentially aligned ourselves opcon with that army aligned ourselves opcon with that army aligned ourselves opcon with that army company and were given battle space to company and were given battle space to

31:18 company and were given battle space to cover for a brigade combat team west of cover for a brigade combat team west of cover for a brigade combat team west of Baghdad. Navy took south of Baghdad. Baghdad. Navy took south of Baghdad. Baghdad. Navy took south of Baghdad. They had an equivalent like unit size uh They had an equivalent like unit size uh They had an equivalent like unit size uh to ours. And so what you had is like an to ours. And so what you had is like an to ours. And so what you had is like an army company that then became army company that then became army company that then became configured in a way configured in a way configured in a way because we said, "Hey, we'll plug in."

31:36 because we said, "Hey, we'll plug in." because we said, "Hey, we'll plug in." Navy said, "We'll plug in and and that's Navy said, "We'll plug in and and that's Navy said, "We'll plug in and and that's eventually what the army doctrally eventually what the army doctrally eventually what the army doctrally decided to go with. It's like a three decided to go with. It's like a three decided to go with. It's like a three platoon function for an army EOD platoon function for an army EOD platoon function for an army EOD company, company, company, but it's supposed to be one company per but it's supposed to be one company per but it's supposed to be one company per brigade combat team, not one company for

31:53 brigade combat team, not one company for brigade combat team, not one company for three brigade combat teams." and um three brigade combat teams." and um three brigade combat teams." and um highly dense highly dense highly dense urban terrain. urban terrain. urban terrain. >> What's your most memorable EOD mission >> What's your most memorable EOD mission >> What's your most memorable EOD mission while you were there? while you were there? while you were there? >> Oh yeah. Um it was the day I met >> Oh yeah. Um it was the day I met >> Oh yeah. Um it was the day I met Mark Millie. Mark Millie. Mark Millie. >> What was his rank at the time?

32:14 >> What was his rank at the time? >> What was his rank at the time? >> Colonel. >> Colonel. >> Colonel. >> Colonel. >> Colonel. >> Colonel. >> Yeah. He was the commander of um second >> Yeah. He was the commander of um second >> Yeah. He was the commander of um second brigade 10thbound division. And um brigade 10thbound division. And um brigade 10thbound division. And um so how this went down is like in the so how this went down is like in the so how this went down is like in the 2004 into 2005 time frame, it was when 2004 into 2005 time frame, it was when 2004 into 2005 time frame, it was when um um um the IAD threat was changing and morphing

32:34 the IAD threat was changing and morphing the IAD threat was changing and morphing into um the vehicle born improvised into um the vehicle born improvised into um the vehicle born improvised explosive device kind of modality. explosive device kind of modality. explosive device kind of modality. So So So west of Baghdad, one of the challenges west of Baghdad, one of the challenges west of Baghdad, one of the challenges that you had, just to give a little that you had, just to give a little that you had, just to give a little context, is that you had really like context, is that you had really like context, is that you had really like three sectors all coming together. You

32:52 three sectors all coming together. You three sectors all coming together. You know, you had a division, army division know, you had a division, army division know, you had a division, army division based at Camp Victory whose battle space based at Camp Victory whose battle space based at Camp Victory whose battle space pushed west. you had I think it was it pushed west. you had I think it was it pushed west. you had I think it was it was an international multinational was an international multinational was an international multinational division that came up from the south division that came up from the south division that came up from the south um and and their boundary touched the

33:09 um and and their boundary touched the um and and their boundary touched the western Baghdad boundary. Then you had western Baghdad boundary. Then you had western Baghdad boundary. Then you had the Marines Fallujah like and their the Marines Fallujah like and their the Marines Fallujah like and their boundary came on down into this like boundary came on down into this like boundary came on down into this like intersection. So that became dead space. intersection. So that became dead space. intersection. So that became dead space. Nobody's patrolling. Nobody's taking Nobody's patrolling. Nobody's taking Nobody's patrolling. Nobody's taking responsibility

33:24 responsibility responsibility and intelligence is you know based on and intelligence is you know based on and intelligence is you know based on threats and attacks threats and attacks threats and attacks making it clear that the insurgents have making it clear that the insurgents have making it clear that the insurgents have taken advantage of this ungoverned space taken advantage of this ungoverned space taken advantage of this ungoverned space in order to develop capacity and in order to develop capacity and in order to develop capacity and capability especially uh in the form of capability especially uh in the form of capability especially uh in the form of vehicle born improvised explosive

33:42 vehicle born improvised explosive vehicle born improvised explosive devices. So there was a mission devices. So there was a mission devices. So there was a mission undertaken, right, for a brief period of undertaken, right, for a brief period of undertaken, right, for a brief period of time to push out the army's battle space time to push out the army's battle space time to push out the army's battle space into that sort of uncovered area because into that sort of uncovered area because into that sort of uncovered area because the Poles aren't pushing north, the the Poles aren't pushing north, the the Poles aren't pushing north, the Marines aren't coming south, so the army

33:57 Marines aren't coming south, so the army Marines aren't coming south, so the army went further west. And um first day they went further west. And um first day they went further west. And um first day they sent a patrol out into that space. And I sent a patrol out into that space. And I sent a patrol out into that space. And I seem to recall it was the 256th seem to recall it was the 256th seem to recall it was the 256th um brigade combat team of the Louisiana um brigade combat team of the Louisiana um brigade combat team of the Louisiana Army National Guard. Army National Guard. Army National Guard. and they've got um a patrol of Bradley and they've got um a patrol of Bradley

34:16 and they've got um a patrol of Bradley fighting vehicles that are essentially fighting vehicles that are essentially fighting vehicles that are essentially like surveying parts of the new battle like surveying parts of the new battle like surveying parts of the new battle space. And so, um, you've got this space. And so, um, you've got this space. And so, um, you've got this patrol of armored vehicles bouncing down patrol of armored vehicles bouncing down patrol of armored vehicles bouncing down a road as the story is told, a road as the story is told, a road as the story is told, and this really attentive like gunner and this really attentive like gunner

34:36 and this really attentive like gunner sees this like mud hut with this crappy sees this like mud hut with this crappy sees this like mud hut with this crappy like fence around it. like fence around it. like fence around it. And, you know, he calls out on the radio And, you know, he calls out on the radio And, you know, he calls out on the radio like, "Stop the convoy. Stop the like, "Stop the convoy. Stop the like, "Stop the convoy. Stop the convoy." And the reason why is he had convoy." And the reason why is he had convoy." And the reason why is he had spotted this beautiful, pristine, spotted this beautiful, pristine, spotted this beautiful, pristine, finely maintain and polished black Chevy finely maintain and polished black Chevy finely maintain and polished black Chevy Suburban sitting there. A little Suburban sitting there. A little

35:01 Suburban sitting there. A little unusual. So they dismount, unusual. So they dismount, unusual. So they dismount, they go to secure that little tiny, you they go to secure that little tiny, you they go to secure that little tiny, you know, compound. And um what do you know? know, compound. And um what do you know? know, compound. And um what do you know? Couple guys run and get away. They stag Couple guys run and get away. They stag Couple guys run and get away. They stag a couple guys. a couple guys. a couple guys. soldiers start moving around and what soldiers start moving around and what soldiers start moving around and what they have stumbled across is a 1,600 lb they have stumbled across is a 1,600 lb

35:22 they have stumbled across is a 1,600 lb VB built into a Chevy Suburban. VB built into a Chevy Suburban. VB built into a Chevy Suburban. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So, >> Yeah. So, >> Yeah. So, what Kenny and I, what Kenny and I, what Kenny and I, um, Senior Merl and I had agreed to is um, Senior Merl and I had agreed to is um, Senior Merl and I had agreed to is that listen, whenever we have a VB call, that listen, whenever we have a VB call, that listen, whenever we have a VB call, one of the two of us is going to go on one of the two of us is going to go on one of the two of us is going to go on that call cuz they're they they're

35:43 that call cuz they're they they're that call cuz they're they they're complicated. They get a lot of attention complicated. They get a lot of attention complicated. They get a lot of attention and we just we need the team leader that and we just we need the team leader that and we just we need the team leader that E6 to be focused on guiding his team to E6 to be focused on guiding his team to E6 to be focused on guiding his team to render that problem safe and get render that problem safe and get render that problem safe and get everybody back inside the wire like as everybody back inside the wire like as everybody back inside the wire like as quickly as we can. They don't need to be

35:59 quickly as we can. They don't need to be quickly as we can. They don't need to be managing personalities, let's say. managing personalities, let's say. managing personalities, let's say. So Kenny wasn't available that day. So I So Kenny wasn't available that day. So I So Kenny wasn't available that day. So I get that call. So we roll out to the get that call. So we roll out to the get that call. So we roll out to the scene and and it it is very complicated. scene and and it it is very complicated. scene and and it it is very complicated. the train is a little tough because you the train is a little tough because you the train is a little tough because you you know you're between these waddies

36:16 you know you're between these waddies you know you're between these waddies and and and so what we end up doing is um there's a so what we end up doing is um there's a so what we end up doing is um there's a cordon established and and security is cordon established and and security is cordon established and and security is being held outside that circle for our being held outside that circle for our being held outside that circle for our team. we're just inside it so that we team. we're just inside it so that we team. we're just inside it so that we can be defended uh while we're working can be defended uh while we're working can be defended uh while we're working because we're very vulnerable when our

36:35 because we're very vulnerable when our because we're very vulnerable when our focus is singularly on okay we've got focus is singularly on okay we've got focus is singularly on okay we've got this thing we don't know how it works this thing we don't know how it works this thing we don't know how it works and by the way like as you start like and by the way like as you start like and by the way like as you start like getting into the hut or or um uh you getting into the hut or or um uh you getting into the hut or or um uh you know walking the terrain in the ground know walking the terrain in the ground know walking the terrain in the ground you find like oh my goodness there they

36:53 you find like oh my goodness there they you find like oh my goodness there they have a whole cache of things here have a whole cache of things here have a whole cache of things here >> beyond what they've already constructed >> beyond what they've already constructed >> beyond what they've already constructed so as to working on this problem. Um so as to working on this problem. Um so as to working on this problem. Um the army officer who's out there with me

37:00 Stigma, Silence, and the Veterans Left Behind

37:05 the army officer who's out there with me the army officer who's out there with me um leading this security element for us um leading this security element for us um leading this security element for us says um hey the great commander's coming says um hey the great commander's coming says um hey the great commander's coming out and and when he arrived the tech sergeant E6 who's running the the tech sergeant E6 who's running the problem cuz I mean he is the onseen problem cuz I mean he is the onseen problem cuz I mean he is the onseen commander right now right that's how it commander right now right that's how it commander right now right that's how it works when you have an EOD problem that

37:28 works when you have an EOD problem that works when you have an EOD problem that EOD NCO EOD NCO EOD NCO owns everything on that scene and he owns everything on that scene and he owns everything on that scene and he owned me. And he goes, "Okay, that guy owned me. And he goes, "Okay, that guy owned me. And he goes, "Okay, that guy is your problem. You go deal with that." is your problem. You go deal with that." is your problem. You go deal with that." And so, of course, right, I'm thinking, And so, of course, right, I'm thinking, And so, of course, right, I'm thinking, "Well, then he'll come to like this side "Well, then he'll come to like this side "Well, then he'll come to like this side of the court on over here and and and

37:47 of the court on over here and and and of the court on over here and and and come in from this more secure come in from this more secure come in from this more secure um um um direction." Now, direction." Now, direction." Now, uh, the good Colonel Millie decides to uh, the good Colonel Millie decides to uh, the good Colonel Millie decides to enter the cordon enter the cordon enter the cordon from the furthest point away from where from the furthest point away from where from the furthest point away from where we are standing, walking toward the hut we are standing, walking toward the hut we are standing, walking toward the hut and the BB and uh, I just get a little

38:10 and the BB and uh, I just get a little and the BB and uh, I just get a little tap on the shoulder and he's all go get tap on the shoulder and he's all go get tap on the shoulder and he's all go get him. him. him. >> So, I go walk out here and and I'm like, >> So, I go walk out here and and I'm like, >> So, I go walk out here and and I'm like, Colonel Millie, um, I'm your EOD team Colonel Millie, um, I'm your EOD team Colonel Millie, um, I'm your EOD team leader out here. I'm I'm your YOD flight leader out here. I'm I'm your YOD flight leader out here. I'm I'm your YOD flight commander out here. Um I just would commander out here. Um I just would

38:26 commander out here. Um I just would suggest that we walk as quickly as we suggest that we walk as quickly as we suggest that we walk as quickly as we can like over here to where the boys are can like over here to where the boys are can like over here to where the boys are because that right there is a 1600 lb because that right there is a 1600 lb because that right there is a 1600 lb VB. VB. VB. So I got a grumble and I got a grunt. He So I got a grumble and I got a grunt. He So I got a grumble and I got a grunt. He came over looked over the shoulders with came over looked over the shoulders with came over looked over the shoulders with the guys for a bit and by that time

38:41 the guys for a bit and by that time the guys for a bit and by that time we've kind of figured out that what we we've kind of figured out that what we we've kind of figured out that what we had going on there is the vehicle was had going on there is the vehicle was had going on there is the vehicle was all set and completely configured. Um, all set and completely configured. Um, all set and completely configured. Um, but it was intended to be a suicide uh but it was intended to be a suicide uh but it was intended to be a suicide uh VB, right? And obviously like Black VB, right? And obviously like Black VB, right? And obviously like Black Chevy Suburban

38:57 Chevy Suburban Chevy Suburban meant to kind of blend in so that it meant to kind of blend in so that it meant to kind of blend in so that it could gain access to places that it could gain access to places that it could gain access to places that it might, you know, otherwise be able to might, you know, otherwise be able to might, you know, otherwise be able to get into. But then we had to start get into. But then we had to start get into. But then we had to start working through disposing of all this. working through disposing of all this. working through disposing of all this. And so when you have like the main And so when you have like the main

39:10 And so when you have like the main charge of that thing as a you know charge of that thing as a you know charge of that thing as a you know hundreds of pounds n they will see mine hundreds of pounds n they will see mine hundreds of pounds n they will see mine with a second one kind of hidden out with a second one kind of hidden out with a second one kind of hidden out like in the brush you know um we had a like in the brush you know um we had a like in the brush you know um we had a lot of work to do and you know we worked lot of work to do and you know we worked lot of work to do and you know we worked into the night we worked till it got into the night we worked till it got

39:25 into the night we worked till it got dark. Um, dark. Um, dark. Um, and at least we took that one down, and at least we took that one down, and at least we took that one down, right? And we were able to feed right? And we were able to feed right? And we were able to feed some of what we gathered in terms of um, some of what we gathered in terms of um, some of what we gathered in terms of um, forensic intelligence into the system. forensic intelligence into the system. forensic intelligence into the system. Um, which was central to the approach Um, which was central to the approach Um, which was central to the approach that we were all taking as an EOD

39:45 that we were all taking as an EOD that we were all taking as an EOD community at that time, which was kind community at that time, which was kind community at that time, which was kind of revolutionary. I mean, it shouldn't of revolutionary. I mean, it shouldn't of revolutionary. I mean, it shouldn't have been because our our Brit friends have been because our our Brit friends have been because our our Brit friends in Northern Ireland had been doing it, in Northern Ireland had been doing it, in Northern Ireland had been doing it, you know, to address the troubles for you know, to address the troubles for you know, to address the troubles for years. But um

39:55 years. But um years. But um but yeah, that's I think meeting General but yeah, that's I think meeting General but yeah, that's I think meeting General Millie for the first time, but as Millie for the first time, but as Millie for the first time, but as Colonel Millie Colonel Millie Colonel Millie uh right there, you know, um adjacent to uh right there, you know, um adjacent to uh right there, you know, um adjacent to that VB that VB that VB wasn't uh on my bingo card then or ever. wasn't uh on my bingo card then or ever. wasn't uh on my bingo card then or ever. >> I I know him as an academic and >> I I know him as an academic and >> I I know him as an academic and charismatic guy and I've never had a charismatic guy and I've never had a charismatic guy and I've never had a chance to meet him or speak speak with chance to meet him or speak speak with

40:19 chance to meet him or speak speak with him. one of the guys in my office was him. one of the guys in my office was him. one of the guys in my office was his protocol officer when he was the his protocol officer when he was the his protocol officer when he was the when he was the chairman. Um what what when he was the chairman. Um what what when he was the chairman. Um what what were you what were your thoughts? What were you what were your thoughts? What were you what were your thoughts? What were the stories did you hear? Was he were the stories did you hear? Was he were the stories did you hear? Was he from a leadership perspective? from a leadership perspective?

40:33 from a leadership perspective? >> Well, I mean let me just talk to it in >> Well, I mean let me just talk to it in >> Well, I mean let me just talk to it in like practical ways like my interactions like practical ways like my interactions like practical ways like my interactions with him over time. It's really with him over time. It's really with him over time. It's really interesting like how interesting like how interesting like how um you know I found myself like in his um you know I found myself like in his um you know I found myself like in his presence um at least two other times of presence um at least two other times of

40:46 presence um at least two other times of note um after that and and I never did note um after that and and I never did note um after that and and I never did make the connection with him between make the connection with him between make the connection with him between that incident when he was a brigade that incident when he was a brigade that incident when he was a brigade commander uh and I was leading an EOD commander uh and I was leading an EOD commander uh and I was leading an EOD team and um there was those subsequent team and um there was those subsequent team and um there was those subsequent moments right but um moments right but um moments right but um the next time I met General Millie I was

41:08 the next time I met General Millie I was the next time I met General Millie I was um um um serving at home in Massachusetts. By serving at home in Massachusetts. By serving at home in Massachusetts. By this time I had switched to the Army this time I had switched to the Army this time I had switched to the Army National Guard in December 2005, but to National Guard in December 2005, but to National Guard in December 2005, but to come to you know to DC uh serve here at come to you know to DC uh serve here at come to you know to DC uh serve here at this level, become an Army congressional this level, become an Army congressional this level, become an Army congressional fellow, but I'm also keeping up like

41:25 fellow, but I'm also keeping up like fellow, but I'm also keeping up like kind of all of my um sort of operational kind of all of my um sort of operational kind of all of my um sort of operational qualifications um as an Army logistician qualifications um as an Army logistician qualifications um as an Army logistician and had the chance to go home and be a and had the chance to go home and be a and had the chance to go home and be a battalion commander. Um but but as we battalion commander. Um but but as we battalion commander. Um but but as we had some turnover in the senior most had some turnover in the senior most had some turnover in the senior most leadership of the Massachusetts National

41:39 leadership of the Massachusetts National leadership of the Massachusetts National Guard with with um as you and I know it Guard with with um as you and I know it Guard with with um as you and I know it the agitant general who is the the agitant general who is the the agitant general who is the governorappointed governorappointed governorappointed head of a national guard in the state head of a national guard in the state head of a national guard in the state when when we had that turnover because when when we had that turnover because when when we had that turnover because we had one who was promoted to a third we had one who was promoted to a third we had one who was promoted to a third star and came here to Washington to lead

41:57 star and came here to Washington to lead star and came here to Washington to lead the Air National Guard. his successor the Air National Guard. his successor the Air National Guard. his successor um came to learn about my background and um came to learn about my background and um came to learn about my background and experience as a legislative liaison and experience as a legislative liaison and experience as a legislative liaison and um and and the successes that I've met um and and the successes that I've met um and and the successes that I've met with with in that um part of my career with with in that um part of my career with with in that um part of my career and and so that new agent general, you

42:18 and and so that new agent general, you and and so that new agent general, you know, wanted some help with trying to know, wanted some help with trying to know, wanted some help with trying to get on his feet in terms of get on his feet in terms of get on his feet in terms of relationships with federal elected relationships with federal elected relationships with federal elected officials and then maybe to see how that officials and then maybe to see how that officials and then maybe to see how that would translate into reinvigorating a would translate into reinvigorating a would translate into reinvigorating a relationship with our state house relationship with our state house relationship with our state house whether it was with our governor or the whether it was with our governor or the whether it was with our governor or the state legislature or you know even

42:33 state legislature or you know even state legislature or you know even cabinet agencies you know at the state cabinet agencies you know at the state cabinet agencies you know at the state level. So that um turned out to be quite level. So that um turned out to be quite level. So that um turned out to be quite a cool and interesting a cool and interesting a cool and interesting experience. But remind me of the experience. But remind me of the experience. But remind me of the question one more time. What were you question one more time. What were you question one more time. What were you trying to do there? trying to do there? trying to do there? >> From a from a leadership standpoint I I

42:46 >> From a from a leadership standpoint I I >> From a from a leadership standpoint I I I know that he's an academic and he's I know that he's an academic and he's I know that he's an academic and he's charismatic. I was just curious charismatic. I was just curious charismatic. I was just curious interaction wise if if that's true. interaction wise if if that's true. interaction wise if if that's true. >> Got it. So um >> Got it. So um >> Got it. So um okay. So let me So the short answer is yes. But here's So the short answer is yes. But here's how I get there, right? So So my second how I get there, right? So So my second how I get there, right? So So my second interaction, right, because I become the

43:07 interaction, right, because I become the interaction, right, because I become the executive officer to this new general is executive officer to this new general is executive officer to this new general is um our governor pulls General Keefe um our governor pulls General Keefe um our governor pulls General Keefe close as essentially like his senior close as essentially like his senior close as essentially like his senior military adviser as he should, right? a military adviser as he should, right? a military adviser as he should, right? a governor is a commander-in-chief of a governor is a commander-in-chief of a governor is a commander-in-chief of a state's national guard and that senior

43:24 state's national guard and that senior state's national guard and that senior military leader should his be his military leader should his be his military leader should his be his adviser on military matters. And so in adviser on military matters. And so in adviser on military matters. And so in Massachusetts, we were trying to Massachusetts, we were trying to Massachusetts, we were trying to organize to compete to have the Air organize to compete to have the Air organize to compete to have the Air Force Futures Command come to Boston. Force Futures Command come to Boston. Force Futures Command come to Boston. And so uh General Keefe and then by

43:36 And so uh General Keefe and then by And so uh General Keefe and then by extension me got pulled into the circle extension me got pulled into the circle extension me got pulled into the circle of people that were trying to help of people that were trying to help of people that were trying to help Commonwealth and the governor um make Commonwealth and the governor um make Commonwealth and the governor um make that pitch. And so one of the stops that pitch. And so one of the stops that pitch. And so one of the stops along the way when we accompanied the along the way when we accompanied the along the way when we accompanied the governor to some meetings in the

43:49 governor to some meetings in the governor to some meetings in the Pentagon on this issue was to see Pentagon on this issue was to see Pentagon on this issue was to see General Millie when he was serving as a General Millie when he was serving as a General Millie when he was serving as a chief of staff in the army. So, here we chief of staff in the army. So, here we chief of staff in the army. So, here we are as I know it to be in the same are as I know it to be in the same are as I know it to be in the same office that was occupied by George office that was occupied by George office that was occupied by George Marshall. Marshall. Marshall. And here is um

44:05 And here is um And here is um the hockey playing the hockey playing the hockey playing um um um Gruff General Millie giving the governor Gruff General Millie giving the governor Gruff General Millie giving the governor of the Commonwealth a hard time. All in of the Commonwealth a hard time. All in of the Commonwealth a hard time. All in good fun. all in just but I don't know good fun. all in just but I don't know good fun. all in just but I don't know what to make of it as a um you know as a what to make of it as a um you know as a what to make of it as a um you know as a lieutenant colonel kind of just sitting lieutenant colonel kind of just sitting lieutenant colonel kind of just sitting on the sidelines of a conversation like

44:27 on the sidelines of a conversation like on the sidelines of a conversation like that but it was pretty neat right to that but it was pretty neat right to that but it was pretty neat right to kind of see that come full circle to be kind of see that come full circle to be kind of see that come full circle to be a part of the national guard and and to a part of the national guard and and to a part of the national guard and and to be able to accompany our be able to accompany our be able to accompany our commander-in-chief to go have an commander-in-chief to go have an commander-in-chief to go have an interaction with one of our service interaction with one of our service

44:39 interaction with one of our service chiefs in the Pentagon um you know it chiefs in the Pentagon um you know it chiefs in the Pentagon um you know it just it was it was pretty um it was just it was it was pretty um it was just it was it was pretty um it was pretty neat and then the then the Third pretty neat and then the then the Third pretty neat and then the then the Third occasion was when um occasion was when um occasion was when um I returned to the Pentagon to become a I returned to the Pentagon to become a I returned to the Pentagon to become a member of the chairman staff that we member of the chairman staff that we member of the chairman staff that we refer to as the joint staff and I was

44:59 refer to as the joint staff and I was refer to as the joint staff and I was serving in the director of logistics J4. serving in the director of logistics J4. serving in the director of logistics J4. Um for the first 13 months of that Um for the first 13 months of that Um for the first 13 months of that assignment, I worked in the National assignment, I worked in the National assignment, I worked in the National Military Command Center uh as one of the Military Command Center uh as one of the Military Command Center uh as one of the senior leaders responsible for the um senior leaders responsible for the um senior leaders responsible for the um global joint logistics operations center

45:15 global joint logistics operations center global joint logistics operations center synchronizing uh strategic logistics synchronizing uh strategic logistics synchronizing uh strategic logistics during the period of the um Afghan during the period of the um Afghan during the period of the um Afghan Afghanistan non-combatant evacuation Afghanistan non-combatant evacuation Afghanistan non-combatant evacuation operation operation operation with a small breather before we kicked with a small breather before we kicked with a small breather before we kicked off the push of um military aid to off the push of um military aid to off the push of um military aid to Ukraine.

45:33 Ukraine. Ukraine. um after Russia's incursion into their um after Russia's incursion into their um after Russia's incursion into their country. Um, but it was during that country. Um, but it was during that country. Um, but it was during that latter phase toward the end of my 13 latter phase toward the end of my 13 latter phase toward the end of my 13 months, um, you know, where I just drew months, um, you know, where I just drew months, um, you know, where I just drew the short straw and General Millie was the short straw and General Millie was the short straw and General Millie was having a conversation with his having a conversation with his having a conversation with his counterpart in Ukraine and um, counterpart in Ukraine and um, counterpart in Ukraine and um, I became the person that was going to be I became the person that was going to be

46:00 I became the person that was going to be the the the one to staff him on the the the the one to staff him on the the the the one to staff him on the logistics issues. And so here I am, logistics issues. And so here I am, logistics issues. And so here I am, right, sitting in his office, the right, sitting in his office, the right, sitting in his office, the chairman's office, this guy that I met chairman's office, this guy that I met chairman's office, this guy that I met like on this, you know, dirt patch west like on this, you know, dirt patch west like on this, you know, dirt patch west of Baghdad. Don't walk that way. Don't walk that way. >> Exactly. I'm like, "Come with me,

46:18 >> Exactly. I'm like, "Come with me, >> Exactly. I'm like, "Come with me, please." And then here we are and and please." And then here we are and and please." And then here we are and and he's talking to General Zalooki he's talking to General Zalooki he's talking to General Zalooki and um we think we're going to get out of that we think we're going to get out of that meeting. And that income comes a call meeting. And that income comes a call meeting. And that income comes a call from a combatant commander. And so he from a combatant commander. And so he from a combatant commander. And so he flips immediately flips immediately flips immediately um you know into that conversation with

46:37 um you know into that conversation with um you know into that conversation with that combat commander that combat commander that combat commander where he is where he is where he is drawing on that deep academic background drawing on that deep academic background drawing on that deep academic background and knowledge about war in the Pacific. and knowledge about war in the Pacific. and knowledge about war in the Pacific. And here's why that's relevant. So his And here's why that's relevant. So his And here's why that's relevant. So his dad was a Marine. If I remember this dad was a Marine. If I remember this dad was a Marine. If I remember this right his dad landed on Euima.

46:57 right his dad landed on Euima. right his dad landed on Euima. >> Oh. And so one of the experiences I >> Oh. And so one of the experiences I >> Oh. And so one of the experiences I remember from taking Governor Baker to remember from taking Governor Baker to remember from taking Governor Baker to General Milliey's office when he was General Milliey's office when he was General Milliey's office when he was chief of staff of the Army was when chief of staff of the Army was when chief of staff of the Army was when General Millie was walking us around the General Millie was walking us around the General Millie was walking us around the office. He pulled a jar off the shelf

47:10 office. He pulled a jar off the shelf office. He pulled a jar off the shelf and he said, "This is the sand that my and he said, "This is the sand that my and he said, "This is the sand that my dad collected as a United States Marine dad collected as a United States Marine dad collected as a United States Marine from that beach." from that beach." from that beach." And so now like And so now like And so now like here he is talking with this combat here he is talking with this combat here he is talking with this combat commander. commander. commander. But it's like it's not just academic, But it's like it's not just academic, But it's like it's not just academic, it's also like inherently personal.

47:32 it's also like inherently personal. it's also like inherently personal. And um because his dad and all these And um because his dad and all these And um because his dad and all these people that his dad probably grew up people that his dad probably grew up people that his dad probably grew up with or got to know with or got to know with or got to know were killed or were maimed or are were killed or were maimed or are were killed or were maimed or are missing. missing. missing. And um but to watch him like school this And um but to watch him like school this And um but to watch him like school this fellow fourstar fellow fourstar fellow fourstar um not in a bad way but to have like a um not in a bad way but to have like a um not in a bad way but to have like a coherent deep thoughtful argument coherent deep thoughtful argument

47:59 coherent deep thoughtful argument that really are driven around the issues that really are driven around the issues that really are driven around the issues of time, space, technology, like tyranny of time, space, technology, like tyranny

48:00 Resilience Beyond the Uniform

48:04 of time, space, technology, like tyranny of distance um logistics and I'm just of distance um logistics and I'm just of distance um logistics and I'm just like how did I get to be here? What? So, those are my three big ones What? So, those are my three big ones with General Millie. >> As I sit here and listen to these >> As I sit here and listen to these stories, I think to myself, 32 years of stories, I think to myself, 32 years of stories, I think to myself, 32 years of military experience, right? 30. military experience, right? 30. military experience, right? 30. >> This will be 33 in December. >> This will be 33 in December.

48:25 >> This will be 33 in December. >> 33 years of military experience >> 33 years of military experience >> 33 years of military experience as an openly trans person now as an openly trans person now as an openly trans person now who has done nothing but support and who has done nothing but support and who has done nothing but support and defend the Constitution of the United defend the Constitution of the United defend the Constitution of the United States. States. States. These are the types of stories that These are the types of stories that These are the types of stories that allow me to to roll back and talk to allow me to to roll back and talk to allow me to to roll back and talk to that Mike Kamorus from 15 years ago, that Mike Kamorus from 15 years ago, that Mike Kamorus from 15 years ago, right, in Las Vegas and be like,

48:50 right, in Las Vegas and be like, right, in Las Vegas and be like, >> "This is why we serve. Why are we so >> "This is why we serve. Why are we so >> "This is why we serve. Why are we so fearful?" You mentioned fear earlier as fearful?" You mentioned fear earlier as fearful?" You mentioned fear earlier as part of your theme. part of your theme. part of your theme. >> Why are we so fearful of those that are >> Why are we so fearful of those that are >> Why are we so fearful of those that are different than than the majority? different than than the majority? different than than the majority? How do we how do we lift the tent and How do we how do we lift the tent and

49:11 How do we how do we lift the tent and allow everybody in allow everybody in allow everybody in and get rid of this fear? Because and get rid of this fear? Because and get rid of this fear? Because recruiting and retention is so recruiting and retention is so recruiting and retention is so important. And to have somebody that's important. And to have somebody that's important. And to have somebody that's been in for 33 years who been in for 33 years who been in for 33 years who if if you hadn't lived with that secret, if if you hadn't lived with that secret, if if you hadn't lived with that secret, you might have never had the opportunity you might have never had the opportunity you might have never had the opportunity to serve. I may not have had the opportunity to I may not have had the opportunity to serve in advance of being sworn in in December

49:43 in advance of being sworn in in December 1991. 1991. 1991. Just like everybody else, I had to go to Just like everybody else, I had to go to Just like everybody else, I had to go to the military entrance processing the military entrance processing the military entrance processing station. how to fill out a questionnaire station. how to fill out a questionnaire station. how to fill out a questionnaire and and I'm asked whether or not and I'm asked whether or not um I engage in transvestism. um I engage in transvestism. um I engage in transvestism. That's a question at MEPS in December That's a question at MEPS in December That's a question at MEPS in December 1991.

50:19 And that's a diagnosible de deviant And that's a diagnosible de deviant social or deviant uh social or deviant uh social or deviant uh mental condition as it's defined at that mental condition as it's defined at that mental condition as it's defined at that time in the diagnostic manual that's time in the diagnostic manual that's time in the diagnostic manual that's used by the psychology and psychiatric used by the psychology and psychiatric used by the psychology and psychiatric community in America. community in America. community in America. Things have since changed. Things have since changed. Things have since changed. Um but when I had to indicate my answer

50:41 Um but when I had to indicate my answer Um but when I had to indicate my answer to that question, it was about okay like to that question, it was about okay like to that question, it was about okay like this one turning points, right? Um, this one turning points, right? Um, this one turning points, right? Um, [Music] and what went through my head in that and what went through my head in that moment is moment is moment is I don't know what I am, I don't know what I am, I don't know what I am, but I know I'm not that but I know I'm not that but I know I'm not that I know what that word means and that's I know what that word means and that's I know what that word means and that's not me.

51:11 not me. not me. So, my answer to this question is no. So, my answer to this question is no. So, my answer to this question is no. Time to raise my hand and go serve. I'm I'm so sorry that I'm I'm so sorry that you've had to struggle with this. Um and you've had to struggle with this. Um and you've had to struggle with this. Um and I'm so thankful for your service. I'm so thankful for your service. I'm so thankful for your service. >> Thanks, Mike. >> Thanks, Mike. >> Thanks, Mike. >> We need we we have just got to educate >> We need we we have just got to educate >> We need we we have just got to educate everybody um to be more accepting and

51:37 everybody um to be more accepting and everybody um to be more accepting and less um division. We're just going less um division. We're just going less um division. We're just going through so such a divisive time right through so such a divisive time right through so such a divisive time right now. Now granted, um, devil's advocate now. Now granted, um, devil's advocate now. Now granted, um, devil's advocate from a recruiting and retention from a recruiting and retention from a recruiting and retention standpoint, standpoint, standpoint, >> sure, >> sure, >> sure, >> we're also, um, losing some of our >> we're also, um, losing some of our

51:52 >> we're also, um, losing some of our traditional recruits from some of these traditional recruits from some of these traditional recruits from some of these communities because quote unquote communities because quote unquote communities because quote unquote wokeism. So, how do we how do we explain wokeism. So, how do we how do we explain wokeism. So, how do we how do we explain guys, gals, this isn't wokeism. We're guys, gals, this isn't wokeism. We're guys, gals, this isn't wokeism. We're just trying to be more inclusive for just trying to be more inclusive for just trying to be more inclusive for everyone. How? But we are losing some of everyone. How? But we are losing some of

52:08 everyone. How? But we are losing some of our particularly in the army, we are our particularly in the army, we are our particularly in the army, we are losing some of our um recruiting losing some of our um recruiting losing some of our um recruiting grounds, if you will, based on wokeism grounds, if you will, based on wokeism grounds, if you will, based on wokeism or we're we're overcorrecting and or we're we're overcorrecting and or we're we're overcorrecting and focusing on the 1% rather than the focusing on the 1% rather than the focusing on the 1% rather than the majority. How how do we bring those majority. How how do we bring those majority. How how do we bring those together together together >> to realize that it's for everyone? >> to realize that it's for everyone? >> to realize that it's for everyone? >> Yeah, I I reflect on that question so

52:29 >> Yeah, I I reflect on that question so >> Yeah, I I reflect on that question so much and I'm glad that you do too, much and I'm glad that you do too, much and I'm glad that you do too, right? Because this is just, you know, I right? Because this is just, you know, I right? Because this is just, you know, I think it's a really important one. Um, think it's a really important one. Um, think it's a really important one. Um, I'm going to tell you like I don't have I'm going to tell you like I don't have I'm going to tell you like I don't have any like silver answers. I don't think any like silver answers. I don't think any like silver answers. I don't think you do either and I don't think anyone

52:39 you do either and I don't think anyone you do either and I don't think anyone does because it is such a complex does because it is such a complex does because it is such a complex matter to be able to continue to matter to be able to continue to matter to be able to continue to successfully draw in the young people um successfully draw in the young people um successfully draw in the young people um that are necessary to keep, you know, that are necessary to keep, you know, that are necessary to keep, you know, our services, our armed services and our services, our armed services and our services, our armed services and these institutions um at their most

52:58 these institutions um at their most these institutions um at their most ready for ready for ready for whatever contingency it is that that whatever contingency it is that that whatever contingency it is that that we're called forward to address uh in we're called forward to address uh in we're called forward to address uh in order to protect our republic. and you order to protect our republic. and you order to protect our republic. and you know preserve this union. Um today's politics, let me start there, today's politics, let me start there, right? Aren't helpful. Um right? Aren't helpful. Um right? Aren't helpful. Um but it's what they are but it's what they are but it's what they are how we got there and and what are the

53:25 how we got there and and what are the how we got there and and what are the things that are contributing to that things that are contributing to that things that are contributing to that divisiveness? Like I think those are divisiveness? Like I think those are divisiveness? Like I think those are good questions to ask and to explore and good questions to ask and to explore and good questions to ask and to explore and you know but what I do want to point out you know but what I do want to point out you know but what I do want to point out is that like I mean and you know it's is that like I mean and you know it's is that like I mean and you know it's it's really evident it's been reported

53:38 it's really evident it's been reported it's really evident it's been reported publicly and widely that you know we've publicly and widely that you know we've publicly and widely that you know we've got other actors in this world of ours got other actors in this world of ours got other actors in this world of ours who are um who are um who are um introducing introducing introducing um I'm trying to think of how to say this I'm trying to think of how to say this but we have these other world actors who but we have these other world actors who but we have these other world actors who who are trying to um influence people here in America people here in America and to feed that divisiveness so that and to feed that divisiveness so that

54:10 and to feed that divisiveness so that gridlock gridlocks our democracy and and gridlock gridlocks our democracy and and gridlock gridlocks our democracy and and we can't achieve the unity necessary to we can't achieve the unity necessary to we can't achieve the unity necessary to address address address the bad things that they are pursuing in the bad things that they are pursuing in the bad things that they are pursuing in terms of their ends as these um you know terms of their ends as these um you know terms of their ends as these um you know very um oppressive regimes whether in very um oppressive regimes whether in very um oppressive regimes whether in China or Russia or in other places right

54:33 China or Russia or in other places right China or Russia or in other places right so I think I think if we can recognize so I think I think if we can recognize so I think I think if we can recognize that that that there are a lot of factors and I'm just there are a lot of factors and I'm just there are a lot of factors and I'm just talking at a very top level right social talking at a very top level right social talking at a very top level right social media is another one you know that that media is another one you know that that media is another one you know that that folks talk about in terms of um you know folks talk about in terms of um you know folks talk about in terms of um you know the ability of of folks to to express the ability of of folks to to express the ability of of folks to to express opinions but do so in ways where you

54:54 opinions but do so in ways where you opinions but do so in ways where you know it contributes to that divisiveness know it contributes to that divisiveness know it contributes to that divisiveness um how we pivot away from divisiveness um how we pivot away from divisiveness um how we pivot away from divisiveness either that which we generate ourselves either that which we generate ourselves either that which we generate ourselves because of the platforms that we because of the platforms that we because of the platforms that we interact with each other through or the interact with each other through or the interact with each other through or the outside influence of these global uh

55:10 outside influence of these global uh outside influence of these global uh malign actors on our country and our malign actors on our country and our malign actors on our country and our people like that's I think starting big people like that's I think starting big people like that's I think starting big going to small like that's where you going to small like that's where you going to small like that's where you start right like how do we get to a start right like how do we get to a start right like how do we get to a place where we can have conversations place where we can have conversations place where we can have conversations with each other in this country um Now,

55:26 with each other in this country um Now, with each other in this country um Now, drilling down just a little bit, um, drilling down just a little bit, um, drilling down just a little bit, um, you know, I think one of the traditional you know, I think one of the traditional you know, I think one of the traditional things that like you and I are aware of things that like you and I are aware of things that like you and I are aware of is is is how sources of recruits have is is is how sources of recruits have is is is how sources of recruits have kind of shifted over decades, you know, kind of shifted over decades, you know, kind of shifted over decades, you know, and um, for me, like being a lifelong

55:44 and um, for me, like being a lifelong and um, for me, like being a lifelong New Englander, uh, a member of the New Englander, uh, a member of the New Englander, uh, a member of the Massachusetts National Guard, a citizen Massachusetts National Guard, a citizen Massachusetts National Guard, a citizen of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, like as military installations, active like as military installations, active like as military installations, active duty military installations, uh, were duty military installations, uh, were duty military installations, uh, were drawn down out there, connections

55:57 drawn down out there, connections drawn down out there, connections with communities uh were severed, right? with communities uh were severed, right? with communities uh were severed, right? And um but especially in those places And um but especially in those places And um but especially in those places that also that also that also have got have got have got quite diverse populations, right? from a quite diverse populations, right? from a quite diverse populations, right? from a racial standpoint, from um you know, a racial standpoint, from um you know, a racial standpoint, from um you know, a sexual orientation, queer standpoint, sexual orientation, queer standpoint,

56:17 sexual orientation, queer standpoint, from um a an ethnic standpoint, citizens, immigrants, things of that citizens, immigrants, things of that nature, right? So, um how is it that we nature, right? So, um how is it that we nature, right? So, um how is it that we get ourselves back into those places and get ourselves back into those places and get ourselves back into those places and reestablish those connections with reestablish those connections with reestablish those connections with people and communities? Um, people and communities? Um, people and communities? Um, and I would suggest that like if you and I would suggest that like if you and I would suggest that like if you don't have an identity

56:46 don't have an identity don't have an identity that they can relate to, you're going to that they can relate to, you're going to that they can relate to, you're going to have a hard time persuading them that have a hard time persuading them that have a hard time persuading them that putting the uniform on putting the uniform on putting the uniform on is a choice to make over um pursuing is a choice to make over um pursuing is a choice to make over um pursuing some other endeavor. Um, it's really hard, right? like you have it's really hard, right? like you have systems and processes in the systems and processes in the systems and processes in the institutions that we call our army, our

57:00 What She'd Say to a Soldier Who's Still Hiding

57:11 institutions that we call our army, our institutions that we call our army, our air force, the armed forces um that have air force, the armed forces um that have air force, the armed forces um that have been evolved over not just decades but been evolved over not just decades but been evolved over not just decades but centuries centuries centuries and those institutions have been and those institutions have been and those institutions have been developed by people who have very developed by people who have very developed by people who have very consistent backgrounds. There haven't been a lot of There haven't been a lot of opportunities for people who come from a opportunities for people who come from a

57:32 opportunities for people who come from a different upbringing and a different different upbringing and a different different upbringing and a different background to have a voice in how we background to have a voice in how we background to have a voice in how we modernize those institutions that make modernize those institutions that make modernize those institutions that make them exist in ways that better serve the them exist in ways that better serve the them exist in ways that better serve the population that you know we have here in population that you know we have here in population that you know we have here in America. Um and so what comes first I

57:50 America. Um and so what comes first I America. Um and so what comes first I don't know but you probably could do a don't know but you probably could do a don't know but you probably could do a few of these things all at the same few of these things all at the same few of these things all at the same time. Um, it'd be one thing to make time. Um, it'd be one thing to make time. Um, it'd be one thing to make military service appealing to people by military service appealing to people by military service appealing to people by connecting citizens with folks in connecting citizens with folks in connecting citizens with folks in uniform that are like them, but I think

58:05 uniform that are like them, but I think uniform that are like them, but I think it would also be another element that's it would also be another element that's it would also be another element that's so important to this alto together to so important to this alto together to so important to this alto together to demonstrate and to show that those demonstrate and to show that those demonstrate and to show that those institutions are safe for them to be institutions are safe for them to be institutions are safe for them to be present in. I mean, we can just talk present in. I mean, we can just talk present in. I mean, we can just talk about women in the military, right? And

58:18 about women in the military, right? And about women in the military, right? And that's, you know, it's a very new that's, you know, it's a very new that's, you know, it's a very new perspective for me to to begin to grow perspective for me to to begin to grow perspective for me to to begin to grow into and and and to understand. Um I had into and and and to understand. Um I had into and and and to understand. Um I had empathy for it before and now like I'm empathy for it before and now like I'm empathy for it before and now like I'm living it. Um I haven't lived it for living it. Um I haven't lived it for living it. Um I haven't lived it for decades like some of our colleagues and

58:33 decades like some of our colleagues and decades like some of our colleagues and teammates and um you know, sisters that teammates and um you know, sisters that teammates and um you know, sisters that that we have in common have. Um that we have in common have. Um that we have in common have. Um but it's hard enough to be a woman. It's but it's hard enough to be a woman. It's but it's hard enough to be a woman. It's probably hard enough to be probably hard enough to be probably hard enough to be African-American African-American African-American when you continue to work your way when you continue to work your way when you continue to work your way through like these other

58:54 through like these other through like these other historically marginalized groups historically marginalized groups historically marginalized groups with shrinking and shrinking voices in with shrinking and shrinking voices in with shrinking and shrinking voices in these massive bureaucracies and these massive bureaucracies and these massive bureaucracies and institutions. Um, how do they ever get institutions. Um, how do they ever get institutions. Um, how do they ever get heard? heard? heard? And if they can't be heard, And if they can't be heard, And if they can't be heard, why would people even consider being a why would people even consider being a

59:12 why would people even consider being a part of these organizations? part of these organizations? part of these organizations? >> That's that's what I love about the >> That's that's what I love about the >> That's that's what I love about the military and part of, you know, starting military and part of, you know, starting military and part of, you know, starting this this podcast, you know, this this podcast, you know, this this podcast, you know, storytelling about Voice for Valor is storytelling about Voice for Valor is storytelling about Voice for Valor is the fact that the military made me who I the fact that the military made me who I

59:25 the fact that the military made me who I am. And I am so thankful that it did. am. And I am so thankful that it did. am. And I am so thankful that it did. So, how I I want to get so many more So, how I I want to get so many more So, how I I want to get so many more people involved in service people involved in service people involved in service >> because think about all of the training >> because think about all of the training >> because think about all of the training and education that you received and education that you received and education that you received basically for free and it it shaped you basically for free and it it shaped you

59:42 basically for free and it it shaped you into a professional. So many folks now into a professional. So many folks now into a professional. So many folks now are focused on, oh, I'll do this job for are focused on, oh, I'll do this job for are focused on, oh, I'll do this job for a couple years and I'll go do something a couple years and I'll go do something a couple years and I'll go do something else. I'll do and everybody is very else. I'll do and everybody is very else. I'll do and everybody is very transactional, but in the military it's transactional, but in the military it's transactional, but in the military it's an opportunity for a profession. And I an opportunity for a profession. And I

59:55 an opportunity for a profession. And I just I cannot encourage our youth enough just I cannot encourage our youth enough just I cannot encourage our youth enough to to serve. to to serve. to to serve. >> I agree. I agree. But let's be real. >> I agree. I agree. But let's be real. >> I agree. I agree. But let's be real. It's not for free. What the military It's not for free. What the military It's not for free. What the military gives you and me. It came at a cost to gives you and me. It came at a cost to gives you and me. It came at a cost to you and your family. you and your family. you and your family. It came at a cost to me. It came at a cost to me. It came at a cost to me. >> Yeah.

1:00:12 >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The cost of putting off being my >> The cost of putting off being my >> The cost of putting off being my authentic self for all these years. authentic self for all these years. authentic self for all these years. Um but it's a worthy sacrifice. Um but it's a worthy sacrifice. Um but it's a worthy sacrifice. I know there's a lot of question about I know there's a lot of question about I know there's a lot of question about you know what happens after the election you know what happens after the election you know what happens after the election or what direction our country is headed or what direction our country is headed or what direction our country is headed in and we had a little talk about this in and we had a little talk about this in and we had a little talk about this um in advance of this conversation and

1:00:33 um in advance of this conversation and um in advance of this conversation and that is you know you got to look back that is you know you got to look back that is you know you got to look back over recorded human history and and over recorded human history and and over recorded human history and and realize that um you know there are times realize that um you know there are times realize that um you know there are times even in just the history of our nation even in just the history of our nation even in just the history of our nation this this sort of nent experiment of this this sort of nent experiment of this this sort of nent experiment of ours um which has only existed for a

1:00:49 ours um which has only existed for a ours um which has only existed for a fraction of the 4,000 years that you can fraction of the 4,000 years that you can fraction of the 4,000 years that you can go back and and kind of look at, you go back and and kind of look at, you go back and and kind of look at, you know, what what what we what we're able know, what what what we what we're able know, what what what we what we're able to draw on um and know, but to draw on um and know, but to draw on um and know, but [Music] this isn't the worst time in our this isn't the worst time in our history. history. history. And I, you know, I'm still bullish and And I, you know, I'm still bullish and

1:01:08 And I, you know, I'm still bullish and I'm still optimistic, but I'm a realist, I'm still optimistic, but I'm a realist, I'm still optimistic, but I'm a realist, too. Right? If we get to a place where too. Right? If we get to a place where too. Right? If we get to a place where the nation makes a political choice that the nation makes a political choice that the nation makes a political choice that puts a person in office who will be puts a person in office who will be puts a person in office who will be positioned to have an immediate stroke positioned to have an immediate stroke positioned to have an immediate stroke of a pan effect on me by of a pan effect on me by of a pan effect on me by sending me out of the military. Um, I guess what I would do is or I mean I guess what I would do is or I mean what I would ask is please like what I would ask is please like

1:01:40 what I would ask is please like those of you in the public um who now those of you in the public um who now those of you in the public um who now understand and are aware of this know understand and are aware of this know understand and are aware of this know that there are going to be a small group that there are going to be a small group that there are going to be a small group of people who are the kinds of people of people who are the kinds of people of people who are the kinds of people that you're talking about who are that you're talking about who are that you're talking about who are committed, dedicated, heroic Americans committed, dedicated, heroic Americans

1:01:58 committed, dedicated, heroic Americans who now through no choice of their own who now through no choice of their own who now through no choice of their own are going to be shown the door and we are going to be shown the door and we

62:00 What Freedom Really Means

1:02:04 are going to be shown the door and we need to make sure that they especially need to make sure that they especially need to make sure that they especially from this historically marginalized from this historically marginalized from this historically marginalized group group group have the right soft landing on the other have the right soft landing on the other have the right soft landing on the other side of things. I'll be okay. I've got side of things. I'll be okay. I've got side of things. I'll be okay. I've got great friends and support from people great friends and support from people great friends and support from people like you and our peers and chosen

1:02:23 like you and our peers and chosen like you and our peers and chosen family. Um I'm going to be fine. family. Um I'm going to be fine. family. Um I'm going to be fine. But as a leader like you are, I worry But as a leader like you are, I worry But as a leader like you are, I worry about those that don't have the about those that don't have the about those that don't have the privilege that I have, who are going to privilege that I have, who are going to privilege that I have, who are going to need a hand up. need a hand up. need a hand up. >> Well, thank you, Sloan. I appreciate you >> Well, thank you, Sloan. I appreciate you >> Well, thank you, Sloan. I appreciate you coming out here today and chatting about coming out here today and chatting about coming out here today and chatting about this, and we need a follow- on

1:02:45 this, and we need a follow- on this, and we need a follow- on conversation. conversation. conversation. >> We'll have some. I appreciate it. >> We'll have some. I appreciate it. >> We'll have some. I appreciate it. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Such a pleasure.