1,000 Combat Missions From Vegas — Then It Broke Him

Full transcript

10,323 words · 54:56 runtime

00:00 The Paradox of Remote Warfare

0:00 imagine going to war not from a battlefield of sand and rock but from a climate-controlled room in the american heartland imagine holding the power of life and death through a joystick and a high definition screen watching events unfold from thousands of miles away with perfect clarity you are physically safe but psychologically you are right there in the kill box when your 12-hour shift ends decompress with your unit in a forward operating base you get in your car drive 15 minutes through suburban traffic and sit down for dinner with your family how does a warrior reconcile these two realities what is the unseen toll of this new form of combat this remote warfare this is the critical conversation we're having today

0:58 on voice for valor men and women who serve as pilots and sensor operators for platforms like the mq-9 reaper are on the front lines of modern conflict yet their battle is largely misunderstood and their psychological wounds often go unaddressed they experience the trauma of combat not the physical scars geographic separation that society has come to associate with war today we're privileged to be joined by someone who lived this reality day in and day out exactly tanner is a former mq-9 reaper sensor operator nights he's not just here to share war stories he's here to shed light found mental health challenges oral injury and the nervous system dysregulation that can result from this unique duty

1:55 tanner will walk us through what it's really like realized his own mental health was in crisis

01:57 From Sensor Operator to Advocate

2:02 how that personal struggle led him on a mission bridge the immense gap between operational experience and academic research he's now a powerful advocate spearheading innovative initiatives create specialized mental health support for the drone community fighting to overhaul a system that wasn't built for this type of warrior this is a discussion about breaking down stigmas challenging misconceptions demanding systemic change it's a raw honest and ultimately hopeful look future of veteran care to miss this the voice for valor have you i saw on LinkedIn that you were friends with josh white have you done a podcast with Joshua i know i'm not going to just take you on a trip you're gonna get halfway through this because this is like super intense

2:57 because you guys don't know it so it's a great way for me to get to the details but i'm just going to have you i saw on linkedin that you were friends with josh white have you done a podcast with josh yet uh no and i'm yet i think that was one of those where i'm just trying to make the connections and you know uh roll with theirs so no not yet but yeah he's a good dude he interviewed me a few weeks ago he's way better than i am he's just so dynamic and a smooth talker and he's got nice fancy he's got nice fancy hair i'm just i'm just a average joe every time i see him i'm like dude i'm so jealous look at that look at that fancy hair you've gotten so but yeah he's bringing a bringing

3:25 a solid voice to it too so man don't sell yourself short but he's a good dude um so after this uh if you need an introduction about you know putting your voice out there that'd be huge i'm happy to help absolutely absolutely um and i can either um mention this or not um completely it's you i want to be respectful to you know your podcast and things like that but i'm actually starting um i'm i i didn't sleep last night because i had an epiphany um and i'm starting a consulting business okay or remote warfares but it's going to be a lot more than just like veteran advocacy i want to get into the va with it i've created an entire um training program that's going to flip mental health training on its head um and be something that's never been

4:14 seen before never been done before but because of the complexities of what we're dealing with uh and and everything with you know flying remotely and the challenges and stuff like that it needs this you know layered approach and you know right now it's just kind of getting stuff chucked at the wall if you will every time somebody goes in for it um so it's kind of a combination of modalities if you will between them and so yeah the consulting business is going to help that and i'm also going to try to go around and advocate for drone bases things like that commanders um i think i'm working i've already got potential speaking engagement in the fall before it for elsewhere therefore space which

4:56 is one of the big drone ones okay yeah like i said completely add or take out or whatever there yeah no no problem and you can share any material that we do that we discuss i have absolutely no issues with it because this is all about you know grassroots growth but um making sure i pronounce your last name correctly yakley yeah okay so we'll go ahead and get started and i and i you'll have a few opportunities a chance a few opportunities to talk about your consulting ideas sure and then um i've got like 10 or 12 questions but of course by no means we have to go through all of them we can just see where see where things take us yeah absolutely all right all right well welcome tanner

5:42 yakley to the show today voice for valor i'm mike morris the host and i cannot thank you enough for being on the show i uh i had to ask you um since i'm so new to this i mean i literally started in march how did you even find me how did you find reach out to me for a for a podcast interview yeah well i'm pretty dang resourceful when it comes to looking up things and i'm not gonna lie chat gpt is a lifesaver uh for it so went in there and said you know give me the military podcast give me some hard hitters i want you know i want to be able to bring you know my voice to uh you know everyone uh with it and obviously the military podcast you know definitely hit that mark so

6:25 it was one of those it's just a bunch of deep diving and and digging around and trying to figure out who's doing what out there um oh man that's awesome that's cool to hear that uh chat gpt knows who i am yes yes that's a step in the right direction yeah well i mean man we had a chance to talk a couple days ago and i was i was fascinated by your story and the fact the fact that we have such similar backgrounds when it comes to the to the drone community yeah so the the first question off the off the top rope that i wanted to ask you was you know your background is an mq9 reaper sensor operator it's quite

07:00 Inside the MQ-9 Reaper

7:03 what what initially drew you to this specialized path in the air force absolutely um so i joined the air force in uh september of 2010 uh with it uh my dad was prior air force so when i got to the end end of high school my mom looked at me and said well you either join the military or go to college and i was like i don't want to go to school i died back then i had no no intent of doing that so i was like well let's go to the military and uh worked my recruiter found the job and he's nobody clue what it was uh you know especially back then it was the mq9 was two years uh into the fight at that point and it was you know that was brand new uh for military tech and everything else so

7:46 uh there was just not really a lot of information on it uh and it was just like hey you're gonna be watching stuff and providing overwatch and i was like well that sounds kind of cool um you know so i didn't even really know what it all entailed when i was going into it so before we get too far into the military acronyms can you describe to our listeners what an mq9 reaper actually is absolutely so uh most of the time when people hear drones or anything like that uavs rpas there's a million different acronyms now i think in the last that have come up in the last 15 years uh especially but um the mq9 reaper is a aircraft that's got a 66 foot wingspan uh it's 20 something feet in length

8:29 uh for it um for the standard configuration and so it's not a small aircraft by any means um you know it's it's going to be you know slightly bigger than a cessna that kind of stuff with it so uh you know you're you're looking at a kind of normal size aircraft i think everyone that sees one for the first time in a hangar if they ever get to do that opportunity uh is a little shocked uh by the size of it there so you know it's one of the ones that was primarily used in the global war on terror uh it's got a lot of different repurposes now uh you know that the marines are looking at and things like that with it um but yeah it's you know it's a fully operational aircraft it takes a two-man crew to operate uh one pilot one sensor uh and

9:12 as you mentioned before i was a sensor operator so pilot we always called the bus driver uh you know with it and making sure that uh you know they're getting you where you need to go and and our job was to you know look at look at things on the ground and then guide in weapons and things like that too so yeah it's it's got a lot more into it than people think yeah and a lot of people don't realize how technical the air force is so i imagine that you were a pretty good student in high school because to be a sensor operator you're definitely on the top echelon of the the scores needed to get into these types of classes or to get into these types of programs so what was your specialty in high school what even drove you to

9:53 this air force technical institute if you will yeah yeah um that's the funny thing um i was a terrible student in high school i thought i was so bad i was unmotivated you know i was a typical 16 year old punk kid running around getting in trouble and everything else and you know i think that's why uh it was like all right pick one or the other and get the heck out of here um you know and and it was just like uh all right i'm gonna do this and to be honest i struggled a lot uh in the training i did you know like you said it was extensive it was hard um i failed a lot of events early um with it i had a lot of doubters uh that would look at me and be like i mean i got told straight up that

10:35 you're never gonna make it in this career field you're never gonna be a sensor you're not good enough to do this job uh and first and that just lit something in me at that point to go you know what i'm gonna prove you wrong and it just drove me uh through especially my combat time um was just trying to push myself and realize that i had a little bit of pressure and a little bit of motivation um there was a lot that i could accomplish and you know i realized that going through training you know getting things like the top gun award and stuff like with it and realizing that yeah i might have you know some floundering around and things like that here and there and fail an event every once in a while but at the end of the day i kind of got a

11:19 knack for this thing uh so it was just kind of drove me and drove my want you know my willingness to continue and push myself so you mentioned the top gun award i imagine that means something like you were the best sensor operator in your class at the time is that what that is yeah there was like uh some type of award for um they they we had like competitions on you know who could hit the target the most kind of thing and uh as you know you get there's grading criteria and stuff like that that comes into it and it's super specific and um you know very precise um and yeah so i i think i like it was like top 10 percent of the class and for that and again it was just kind of me at the time just kind of fumbling through it going oh okay that's

12:00 The Boring Reality of 1,000 Combat Missions

12:04 kind of cool yeah that felt good yeah getting recognition that is pretty cool i'm looking at your linkedin profile that that should be on there top gun yes yes absolutely you know you mentioned combat missions and you've flown over a thousand combat missions can you walk us through what a typical mission looked like obviously in the you know in the unclassified world but sure how that experience differed from what most people might imagine about military service a day a day in your shoes in this mission yeah absolutely um so with that you know we were i was stationed in las vegas at the time um so we would wake up and you know we were doing shift work uh to start off and it wasn't like you know oh you get

12:47 a year of shift work no we did four years of shift work straight um so to say i was tired at the end of it was an understatement um to start off but um yeah as far as the mission goes itself you know we'd go in and honestly 95 percent of the time 99 percent of the time it was the most boring dry nothing going on i'm staring at some dude's sleep on a roof uh or you know sleeping on a roof or you know just watching a kid play with goats um you know it doesn't matter what it is um waiting you know for somebody to come in or something like that and so there's a lot of times where it was boring monotonous work uh with it and you're just sitting there you know staring at the screen knowing at any time there could be a call over

13:38 the radio that we need a weapon on there in the next minute uh and so that always sat in the back of your mind you know continually with it and you know it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's you know there were some days where we would sit there and uh nothing would go on and there's days where we would sit there for eight hours in a strike posture eight hours of a finger on a trigger waiting for the words and is ready to pull that trigger at a moment's notice and there's many times where it just didn't happen and you know and it would roll to the next shift and then that next shift would go in and take the weapons employment or something like that so you know

14:13 these types of things really play into a large topic that we're going to talk about today being the mental health toll of these operators because it was just you had through shift worked in there and I was you know I think we I think we talked about this a couple days ago it was a melting pot of bad decisions um across the board with how we were handled how we were looked at you know being expendable um that it was just you just go sit in the box and you're good and people don't realize the amount of mental gymnastics that you'd have to go through you know every single day and you never knew if you were walking into that GCS and you know they were ready

14:56 to go you know with a bad guy into the crosshairs or if you were walking in and just watching a top

15:00 Isolation and the Ghost Town of Las Vegas

15:03 of a building because everybody's sleeping inside for your entire shift um so it was definitely a unique unique experience another unique experience about that location in Las Vegas where you were at in 2010 I was there the same time you were and I try to explain to people it's so compartmentalized I never I never ran into you I had friends I had friends that I went to pilot training with never ran into them the only time he ever ran into somebody was in the chow hall if they were in if they were on a different mission or different squadron and even then you're not talking about what you're doing so it's a very isolating job absolutely if it wasn't for whoever

15:45 was in your flight or whoever's in your squadron that that base is a ghost town there's absolutely yeah there's no there's no camaraderie outside of outside of your squadron because you're read in or signed on to particular classified missions and you don't share that stuff so yeah absolutely it was that was a big you know I would say issue with it and stemming from it you know and that's some of the things that you know I've ran surveys in this area and that's a big that's a big you know like red flag for it I mean people don't feel comfortable even now talking about it um I mean all the stigmas these guys and gals have been doing this for 20 plus years now um with it you know we're getting

16:28 long enough down down the pipe here that you got guys that have been sitting in this you know state of mind for a long time and so you know to really add on to that conditioning and that compartmentalization uh with you know exactly like you said heck there was you know we had two other teams you know the for the cover the three shifts being a day shift a swing shift and a mid shift but he had two other teams and besides the chains out of the two people that would walk into my ground control station you didn't see anybody else so you know even in your own squadron I could go months without seeing an individual in the squadron if they were just happened to line up

17:10 you know just far enough off with whatever their weekend was whatever my weekend was because oh by the way you didn't work Monday through Friday nine to five you worked shift work 365 days a year and on top of it you rotated shifts and you know I don't know about you but for me we run an eight day rotation so we were on five days on three days off um and that first day was like a potential on the hook to get called into work which doesn't seem like that big a deal but again just a tiny little you know piece of icing on top uh we're on that first day off when you're trying to decompress and you're trying to just relax and and whatever or God forbid you're trying to switch shifts

17:55 um you know that there's the smallest one percent chance that your phone rings and you gotta throw that bag on that flight suit and fall up there um you know and that and a lot of times so again you talk about you know all these ways that the operations were conducted and the personnel were uh you know what's what I'm looking for uh you know structured around there and then the schedules and things like that um it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was just like I said a melting pot of bad decisions it was rough um I specifically remember trying to transition from night shift back to day shift that that was so difficult because you know

18:42 my squadron I think we did four weeks on a particular shift before we switched over to that next rotation and in you know now you're at 28 days ish of being on a particular schedule and then switching to that day shift when you're supposed to be sharp because this is a very very important mission it it was it was tough absolutely so you really so you really spent those three days off after your night shift just psychologically preparing yourself to get ready for that day shift yeah absolutely you know the the transitions were the worst because you know it was either you tried to fall asleep right away for a couple hours and then wake up uh you know and then

19:21 just push your body uh you know for 12 hours after that or something like that um or what I would do and a lot of other people would do um was just stay up yeah and so then you're then you're staying up 24 26 28 hours getting that full transition just knocking out and then the next two days you're just you're pretty much sleep you know the entire time because your body is trying to get caught up on oh we just switched you know complete ships completely yeah at what point did you begin noticing these

19:50 Recognizing the Hidden Trauma

19:53 psychological impacts of remote warfare on yourself and on or on your colleagues yeah absolutely um honestly not until I got out um you know I had some minor things I had I like they semi diagnosed me with sleep apnea or not sleep apnea but uh insomnia uh at one point because I just wasn't sleeping um which is insane with the work that we did um there was plenty of times where I would go into work on two hours of sleep and sit there six seven eight hours in the box I'm gonna do that a handful of days and eventually my body would just crash out and you know and then it was just like there's a roll of the dice of when you woke up you know at that point um because there was an alarm

20:38 in the world that would wake me up uh for some of that when you just hit that wall um but yeah absolutely it wasn't until I had family when I first got out and they were like man you seem really irritable you know and that kind of thing and I'm like what are you I'm just a hard charger because that's what the military told me the whole time you know and it's like and then I realized like step back and I'm like maybe something isn't going on here um but like I said you know there's so many stigmas and so many barriers to try to get through that it made it really difficult to recognize truly when that flip switched um and your switch flipped uh and you know I really started recognizing that when I was in the

21:32 Pentagon uh my first job was in policy and I happened to be cubicle mates if you will with um we started talking about the drone mission versus the the man cockpit mission and he said there's just not as many guys struggling with PTSD in the F-15 community and so when we you know bounce some ideas off one another we kind of came to the conclusion that the F-15 is dropping bombs on target and then they're turning out of the weapon engagement Zone and they're you know they're flying back to safety whereas the sensor operator and the the drone pilot are sitting there for hours after the strike and you're seeing this pattern of life that the typical uh man cockpit is not sitting around watching and so he said that he was surprised

22:23 but supportive of what was going on in the drone community because it's like oh you're just staring at a TV screen all day what's you know what's the big what's the big deal so from a from a traditional PTSD framework it doesn't fully capture the experience of drone operators could you explain could you explain how those mental health challenges you observed differ from conventional combat trauma absolutely well the number one thing right um so when you look into this and I dove into this a couple years ago when I was going through the VA system and I just started getting so sick of hitting all these walls and you know they're sitting there and I oh I had a terrible experience my first time unfortunately um I had an intern that did

23:05 my initial diagnosis um you know nobody in that building knew what a drone was uh so it was just very difficult to get through that process but one of the biggest issues uh that's stemming from your question with that is because the Diagnostical Statistical Manual for mental disorders that the VA and other agencies utilize to identify you know if someone has post-traumatic stress disorder or anxiety or any of those types of things um that one specifically it doesn't cover all the basis it's it's only get you know really captures like probably 30 of the mental health issues that drone operators face um and so that's where like I worked where I'm working right

23:55 now and I've got it tested and I'm working with I've got a meeting with the one of the VA directors tomorrow um and presenting this tool there it's called the recon tool and it's the um it's a tool to be able to essentially take in and diagnose drone operators effectively and take into account all the different areas because for me I've spent the last seven years studying this area um I got so sick of just nobody having an answer nobody knowing what to do you know just feeling like more and more of that you know uh outcasts in the community and even worse when you get out you know because then you lose that camaraderie you use that you know all those things and so I was scrambling and and like my like a lot of people

24:41 now struggling a lot yeah um fortunately for me the VA has been very supportive and um I just wanted to remind our listeners that even though we are talking about you know some some dark topics I still look back at that experience is something that I would never trade it developed a human element in me that made me understand the enemy from a completely different perspective I developed a level of empathy even though I felt that what we were doing was was just and and lawful uh it was still painful but I I would never trade that for anything I'm I'm thankful that I had that opportunity and so I don't want to scare people away from from service or flying in the unmanned community because of some of these

25:38 things we're talking about absolutely what you know what what's your thoughts on that yeah I mean you know I'm I'm right there with you I share the same sentiment I am very grateful for what I did um it it made me who I am today um it made me you know launch the initiatives that I'm trying to push and be this change agent for you know across the country for you know squadron commanders for the VA it doesn't matter you know just any education in any way because what we did and what you touched on there was you know the the moral piece of it and that's really the piece that's missing you know especially when we tie it back to that um the uh pcl5 which is the PTSD checklist uh that they utilize um when diagnosing and you know the biggest thing

26:26 that that misses is that moral injury piece and that moral injury piece is exactly what you're talking about right it's I'm I'm going in and I'm watching this individual go get groceries hug his wife play with his kids come home at this time every day you know go to sleep at this I'm I'm getting this almost intimate view uh you know of these operations and these people and I'm learning more than you know like we talked about that f-15 pilot that just comes in drops the bomb and leaves you know I'm learning all the build up ahead of it so you do you you drive this emotional attachment to who you're watching and a tiny part of you gets fragmented away from that one all sudden that person disappears uh i.e there's a

27:19 weapon strike so you know it's this really interesting dynamic with that and that's what I'm in that area uh especially is one that I'm definitely doing more research into um because I can tell you right now that no one is talking about um across the board and it's one area that definitely needs to get brought up and addressed um and you know if if someone should hear drone operator they should tie in moral injury immediately with that um you know almost even more so than you know PTSD which is also I would argue is equally up there you mentioned this and I know that you're working the the drone veteran healing initiative and what what did and

28:00 Nervous System Dysregulation and the Ping Pong Brain

28:03 excuse me but it addresses several layers of healing if I if I understand you correctly could you break down could you break down what nervous system dysregulation and cognitive executive breakdown look like specifically for for drone veterans those are some 50 cent words that I don't understand yes yes um so you know the first part is is what this does to our nervous system uh with this and really you know when you're sitting there in that sustained combat operation um because that's you know you're really on the hook the whole time um and so you're sitting there and you're waiting and you're waiting and you're waiting and so what is your brain doing

28:41 it's constantly evaluating what's going on around you um you know I know a few people that I've talked to and interviewed and things like that and talked to in passing um and I've kind of put a spin on this is that called ping pong brain uh you know you get you get this these thoughts that are bouncing all around um and you're all you you can't keep your mind straight and things like that and some people experience it some people don't um I'm definitely one of them that does uh and so you know it just feels like your brain's on fire um with it and so that ties into a little bit of that nervous system issues there um that and you can get another one with that is uh there's a there's a direct link

29:19 and this is another study area I'm doing with what's called the Vegas nerve um and I can never remember the acronym for there's a um there's a treatment for it uh the acronyms s Sierra Golf Bravo um and it's like stellian ganglion block um something to the effect I'm sure I just butchered the heck out of there so no doctors come after me um but I you know it was one of those things where that's got to do with the Vegas nerve and that runs through your chest um and for me for my nervous system uh you know I've mine can be so out of whack some days that I I feel like there's like a steak driven into my chest or the way that I describe it to doctors and things like that it's like someone was just grabbing at my

30:04 chest and trying to tear my rib cage apart I mean it can be that extreme and that extensive um you know and first time that happened holy crap I thought I was dying yeah I was gonna say did you think you're having a heart attack yeah I ended up I ended up in the ER um because I panicked I was like I don't know what's going on I don't understand this you know kind of thing and so it now you know whenever that happens I put a cold pack on my chest I've got them in the bathroom one of the sink and I walk over grab them pop it and slap it on my chest and it kind of takes kind of numbs um you know that really strong reaction that my body's happening and the hard thing with

30:46 it is it's trying to perceive danger right it gets into that fight flight freeze fawn um and with that you're constantly in this state of it so I can just be walking down the street and walking to a store sitting on the couch doesn't matter and just wham you know it'll just hit you and you're like whoa what the heck is that um so you know that like I said that really gets into that nervous system piece of this um for it and definitely provide some challenges and can frankly be really unsettling the first time you experience it so you know especially for anyone that might be potentially you know watching this video and and share some of these same uh you know symptoms and things like that I want you to know that is

31:36 completely normal you're not having a heart attack and obviously as long as you don't have a heart condition but you know it's that's what you feel like and you're like oh my gosh um kind of thing but really being able to put words behind that can help um it's just because your your nervous system is so out of whack it really seems like your your work um the bridge between operational experience with academic research how has your your doctoral work informed your approach to developing this this healing initiative absolutely um one it's just you know tying in all these studies um there's a gentleman named Wayne Chappelle uh that did a couple different studies uh in this area um and you know back in I think it was 2014 and then

32:21 again in 2019 um and so but a lot of these studies looked at operations you know they went through you know the VA and and and some of these areas and just not able to kind of find the information I was trying to look for and just felt like I was I always felt like I'm like there's got to be something more you know and I and I kept comparing it to you know the people that you know you think of that when you talk about you know post-traumatic stress disorder you think of somebody that you know loses their best friend that's right next to them or something like that you know with it and so I remember I always have my brain go back to that and go what do those guys

33:06 where are those guys at like you know who's treating those guys um because I was just I was so confused on what was all going on um but that's because there just wasn't a fundamental understanding within the medical career field that there's other areas and there's so much dysregulation between you know your nervous system and other areas there um as well as that moral injury piece that aren't covered um in traditional therapies so what resistance have you encountered so far when advocating for these specialized mental health approaches for drone veterans it sounds like you're gonna you have an interview coming or a discussion with the VA so it sounds like there is some progress made

33:53 but what what kind of resistance are you getting yeah um the biggest thing is um honestly is the it's the community um and it's it's because of two things it's because of lack of education

34:00 You're Not Real Soldiers

34:06 um people don't understand like you said when you walk in a room and say you just point somebody and say you know what drone is they probably think a little dinky quadcopters right buzzing around and they've been uh you know everywhere since 2016. um when they became popular so that in itself you know when you're like no the big one from the movies you know I feel like I always find myself saying that that's always like my go-to when I'm talking to people I'm like I'm like no like the big one from the movies like because I don't know how else to describe it to people uh you know and get them get them to click uh with it so that like I said the the lack of education you know within the medical field

34:46 from the public uh that type of thing you know and then how much we compartmentalized back in the day has made these heavy heavy stigmas um within our own community of not talking not bringing things up being scared you know thinking that a uh if I go to the VA and get a PTSD rating that that's going to turn around and affect FAA class two medical it's one medical uh it just depends on you know that that thought process there but that one's a huge one because as you know um but our listeners might not they a large part of this is hey what do you do when you get out you trade a flight suit for a polo uh and go and do it as a contractor because you gained a

35:35 bunch of skills and you were you know working your tail off every day so that's pretty much what we're doing with it so but a lot of people have fear of repercussions with it you know and so that's where other initiatives like the pilot mental health campaign are great objectives for that um and really trying to break down those barriers and those stigmas but that's absolutely a section where you know I always say you know we eat our own uh when it comes to that because especially I remember guys that would go up and they'd cry uncle you know especially 2012 2013 and we all laughed you know and then you know we were like what no because everything we're told is you're not real Erica you're you're a glorified

36:21 um stewardess uh you're the redhead stepchild of this career field you're playing a video game um what you're doing isn't real and you know and you're not there so you can't have trauma you never left the country you never deployed so you can't have trauma and that one I hear a ton that last one and even now unfortunately within you know different health care systems and things like that there's still providers out there that believe that and that's again where that where the uh PCL5 falls short is it's designed for you know that deployment boots on the ground and and arguably you know what I think that thing came out in the 70s um we're a little past that uh you know and it's been revised and things like that but not to

37:10 the level that it needs to be and so that's where you know I'm really pushing the recon uh initiative to be able to change the way and have a specific intake form for mental health and drone operators because the current system is not even close to supporting it correctly um and so many people are just you know you think about all those things that I just said you know you know and they're nice things you know to sit there and especially for your mental and your psyche to sit there and hear those things all the time and then you get out and you're you're invalidated even more because people don't understand and they're not educated um and so I'm working on

37:49 breaking those barriers down I mean that's the whole reason why uh I I am starting a remote warrior consulting um because I want to you know be able to go to these units provide educational materials provide you know what the signs to look for the stigmas you know all these things and just shatter them all um because I can't listen to another call of a best friend or a close buddy that calls me and it's just ballings they're going I don't understand what's going on and right now I know exactly what you're talking about it's scary as heck but I got you uh you know because there's so many few people that truly understand and then you're in the within the system that is

38:31 just knocking you down left and right uh you know with it uh with the training with everything everything is just this insane you know full throttle uh all the way with it so it because of that is really what's driving the need for this change I regret in my own time some of those those traits that you mentioned I I remember if somebody was reaching out for help we're like oh well now the rest of the line has to take up the slack because we're down a pilot or

39:00 The Systemic Overhaul We Need

39:02 we're down a sensor operator and uh in one campaign we had we had a new guy and he came from the c-17 community like myself I came from c-17s and he was literally one of his first couple missions he had a he had a strike and he got out of the seat and he's like I I can't do this and so he became a conscientious dissenter is that the term yeah there's this Observer I think okay yeah objective thank you conch he became he became a conscientious objector yeah and he was a captain at the time who was a flight commander so you're like wait a second man you're in charge of like 20 people and you're not going to do the mission and of course you know looking back now obviously

39:47 a lack of empathy and understanding from my you know from my point of view so I I feel bad for thinking that way but it was like yeah now everybody else has to just fly the line that much more because we're down a pilot or a sensor operator absolutely and then when I was struggling after a couple events I went to talk to the behavioral health guy and nice guy it's nothing personal it's not a personal attack on him but he was saying things like oh when you wake up in the morning just tell yourself I'm gonna have a good day I'm gonna have a good day like brother if you think that's the solution to what's going on between you know my two ears dude that that is that is not it absolutely that is not it so thankfully you and and some others

40:36 out there that are that are speaking out on behalf of everybody thank you for doing that because our behavioral health professionals they they need a different toolbox to to be addressed addressing these situations no absolutely the the stigma is absolutely there and the education is so needed um because that you know i've even seen unfortunately i've gotten comments you know recently from active drone uh you know leadership and they're like well everybody's just using the excuse to get out and it's like what uh you know it's like even after all this time we're still hitting barriers you know and these people are getting affected and then with it so it's it's

41:16 not just a hey we need this checklist you know it's not just a hey we need this checklist are we in this one health care so i'm tackling this from every angle and going this needs a systemic overhaul and this needs every piece of this to get restructured because the system is failing us completely um i mean i can't i can't i've lost count of how many people that i've lost to suicide because they can't face the demons anymore and they don't understand and nobody does you know when they reach out i think of the people like me who obviously have a very tight name personality but man if you're not that dude's not even opening touching the handle on the door

41:56 let alone walking in and so you're gonna have them turn around try to advocate for themselves heck no so it's for guys like that is why i started doing this years ago and like i said it just kind of hit me um with it and with working on the study and everything else and going i need to do truly more with this and i'm in a position and being in the community for 15 years um and being on the research side of it and i'm in a position and being in the community for 15 years being on the operational side you know with it and going i think i can change a couple things here um and make this better for everyone because it's just such a disservice that you know these

42:33 veterans this special group of extremely talented veterans are you know getting looked at like a leopard uh you know with it and and and or just uh they're nah you're just doing a video game you can't have problems i know you're going through your doctorate program so you're you're not complete yet you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're

43:22 know and especially if you're getting treated by you know the VA or any doctor um and if they come in and go all right we're gonna try this one thing that's where you gotta halt that conversation and go hold on this is gonna take multiple different approaches because it's not just that you experience trauma you experience trauma you experience dysregulation you experience you know a dysregulated nervous system uh moral injury you know memory cognitive you know decline so there's so many different things that then ways that this can manifest itself and that that's the

44:00 Muscle Memory and the Invisible Scars

44:04 biggest thing with this is we went through such a dynamic environment that people don't understand all of it's tied together you know and it could be simple things I remember one of the things that uh my fiance told me when we first met we were sitting at a where I think we're out to eat you know and it could be simple things I remember one of the things that uh my fiance told me when we and I was sitting at the table uh and I had my hands you know I had the edges edges of my forearms on the table and I was sitting there like this and she's kind of looking at me and she's like what are you doing and I'm like what are you talking about sitting here eating she's like

44:36 why do you have your hands up like that like I don't know and we talked we sat there and talked about it and I realized well that's because that's where the zoom lever and the joystick was uh you know and my hands would naturally fall and rest on the edge of the console so now when I sat down to have dinner my hands naturally hit the same spot on the table you know and it's like so it's like little epiphanies like that that for the last seven years and talking with people and interviewing people and and being able to you know people get blown away when I when I have a conversation with them and I'm like I'm like let me guess what's going on in your head before even saying anything to them and I bet you I can hit about 75 percent

45:17 of it uh you know because that's the strange thing with this and this is again why I have such strong advocacy for this and I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying for this endeavor is everybody is almost manifesting Polaroid picture the exact same way um and it's this multi-faceted you know symptom uh you know with it and it's all this weird ball of wire that's all tied together um so you know it's really again about bringing more to then hey we just need one therapy we need a complete overhaul across the board wow that's a lot to unpack uh Chris if there was one thing that you wish the general public understood about drone warfare

46:00 Drone Veterans in the Civilian Workforce

46:03 because this is the technology that is progressing what would you what do you want the general public to understand about what's going on absolutely um one that you know these these people um went through so much but also are so capable um so one I mean from like an employer's side man if you're lucky enough to get a drone guy as in in your group you've hit a gold in you you've hit somebody that can handle extreme pressure you've hit someone that can multitask that can operate different sensors that can you know and that can facilitate into things like it program management project management uh you know other areas like that for it and so because of that you know there's so many things that these people can bring to the table but

46:49 unfortunately a lot of it gets looked at as oh well you know you're the one called you know calling mental health you know I've got a service dog that I walk with all day um you know you should see the look i get at you know 33 and i got a service dog and people are like are you training him and i'm like nope he's my i think it's the most common question i get oh i appreciate you saying that because so many people in the civilian community they just think oh well you must be broken and it's like no you're you're not broken these are amazingly capable folks absolutely that that can multitask and do so many things that uh just because they're going through this one they're this one struggle in their life does not mean that they're not a

47:31 wonderful hire that's going to be doing great things for your for your uh for your company absolutely and the other the only other thing i'll say on that real quick too is the other to the other thing that they bring to the table is you don't have to micromanage them uh you know you can let them and and don't because you're gonna one you're gonna you know you're gonna torque them off a little bit uh you know because they're gonna do get my chili kind of thing and like let me do my job um so it's it's one of those that and and but they'll

48:00 A Call for Empathy

48:01 perform beautifully for you you know you give them a lane to work in and it can be as wide as you know a six lane highway but if you do that and you turn around and say all right now let's turn around and go ahead and you know give me this constraint and operate here boom and then they can they can do it uh kind of thing you know you don't need to sit there and be on their case 24 7 you can just say here's what i need to get done what are your thoughts on that and let them run man it's it's it's incredible you know the skills and things like that that we developed um with it and to be able to do this you know tactical thinking split second decision making life or death decisions every single day and now it translates to just this insane

48:46 you know work production that you can bring to the table um and really bring unique perspectives to it i was flying missions in an undisclosed location and i had this young airman sensor operator with me uh like a1c senior airman and i turned to him one day we were on night shift we were doing launch and recovery so we were we were showing up at you know three o'clock in the morning to to grab these airplanes and i turned to him and i said i said brother thank you so much for being such a responsible young man i've never once had to wake you up i've never once had to wait around for you being late or uh being ill prepared for what we're doing i'm like here's a

49:31 little kid that's just knocking it out of the park so if somebody like if somebody like that were to say hey you know i i would like some counseling i would like to get some of these things off my chest it makes me so sad to think that he would be stigmatized and would be potentially a difficult hire because of him him calling out for help because like i said i can tell you a lot of 21 year old kids a day they can't show up at three o'clock in the morning day after day after day and be and be ready to go and responsible on a job so absolutely yeah so there's a lot of great airmen out there that are that are deserving of opportunities 100 well tanner before i leave you i typically ask

50:16 a couple you know closing questions for folks and one of them is what would you say to that that high school 18 year old tanner today about where his career has gone and would you do anything different i wouldn't do is i wouldn't do a thing different i would start off with that because all of my experiences everything i've been through the good the bad and real ugly uh have led me to where i am and made me more resilient and you know i was i pulled my first trigger before i was legally allowed to have a beer uh you know so you know i was 20 years old the first time i employed a weapon and so though you won't get me in one you talk about responsibility you are the tip of the spear um with something like that

51:08 unfortunately the public won't see but man is that such a cool feeling to know when you're successful in those roles and things like that and life skills that you'll learn and the you know ability to be able to process this information as long as you have support and are honest with yourself going through the process and saying i got an issue you know i need help you know kind of thing um and there's a there's been so many programs that have been put in place at these activity bases that are a heck of a lot better than when we went through you know they were non-existent back then um so there is support you know and the more that we normalize this and the more that we do exactly this you know even you and i just sitting here

51:50 talking about this and reminiscing about some of the stories and things like that is going to help and i've already seen it with pushing these initiatives and the messages that i've gotten is just amazing um to see that you know what i'm doing is making a real impact and that there's so many people out there that are struggling obviously you know like you said it's it's sad you know that there's this many people that are feeling that way but at the same time to see the conversation start shifting and just just like a fire all right you take one ember uh kind of thing and it can ignite and absolutely i think we're getting there and the more that we talk about this the better this is going to be um and you

52:37 know for that for that kid that 18 year old kid that wants to make a difference a fantastic career field you are going to do some amazing things uh you are going to do things bigger than yourself than you would ever dream of and you can take it as far as you can go and you can walk away from that with some of the most you know fulfilling and and amazing qualities especially when it comes to leadership and decision making than many many other people at that at that you know even if they do four years at 18 and get out at 22 you're you're you're a decade ahead of anybody else at that point you're you're you're a decade ahead of anybody else at that point you're

53:11 you're you're you're you're a decade ahead of anybody else at that point uh with it so you know don't forget that but at the same time biggest thing that or my mindset has shifted for sure is take care of yourself you know no understand you know and recognize this and again this is where i i'm hoping that you know the remote warrior consulting can i would love to be able to you know travel to bases talk to base commanders talk to squadron commanders present findings present real data uh you know i've ran a survey in the last 48 hours and i got 50 responses i already put in the list of the things that they's said about these issues they say a lot of i'm helping you know people that are in there for guidance um that doesn't happen unless there's a

53:44 systemic issue and there's people quietly crying for help um and and right now i mean that voice is so loud um and so you know it's just one of those where you want to ride that wave and and be and be the change you want to see you know and that's really what it comes down to why i'm doing doing this and and across the board is i want to be the change because no one should have to go through this but at the same time uh you know we we can do a lot better on the other side brother thank you so much for finding me online and now that we're we're linked up on on linkedin i have tons of squadron commanders wing commanders group commanders that are in my that are in my uh network

54:27 yeah network yeah and so please take advantage of that because they all all those guys are they want to help yeah and they will be more than happy to support your initiative because what you're doing is is such a positive for the community and i just thank you so much thank you so much for reaching out to me and taking the time to to have this conversation 100 thank you so much mike for having me i greatly appreciate it absolutely brother take care all right take care