Why 'No' Is the Most Powerful Word in Leadership

Full transcript

13,370 words · 56:20 runtime

00:00 Cold Open — 9/11, One Plane in the Sky

0:00 September 11th, 2001. American skies are empty. Almost. As the nation reels, one of the only military aircraft in the air is a KC-135 tanker, flying directly toward the chaos over the burning Pentagon. The pilot, Jim Camp Jr., has just made a terrifying mistake. He can't authenticate his aircraft to the armed fighter jets scrambling to intercept him. In that moment of intense pressure, with friendly fighters viewing him as a potential threat, the trajectory of his life and career was changed forever. The pilot would eventually wear the two stars of Major General, but his greatest weapon as a leader wasn't found in a cockpit. It was a radical philosophy, pioneered by his own

0:46 father, that challenges everything we believe about how agreements are made. A philosophy built on the power of a single word, no. Today, we explore how leading and negotiating are fundamentally the same skill. We'll learn why hearing no is actually the beginning of an opportunity, and how his systematic approach allowed General Camp to navigate one of the most difficult leadership challenges of our time, the COVID vaccine mandate. Today, I have the distinct honor of welcoming someone I'm proud to call both a fellow Air Force veteran and a friend, Jim Camp Jr. Jim, welcome to Voice for

01:20 Introduction & Jim's Background

1:20 Valor. Welcome to Voice for Valor, the podcast where we explore the extraordinary journeys of those who've served our nation. I'm your host, Mike Comoros. Today, I have the distinct honor of welcoming someone who has been a part of the history of the Air Force. I'm your host, Mike asi. There's no reason for me to believe he has NOT been successful in each of the перед-day adventures of our time. On September 11th 2001, I finally received the invitation to Jim has lived a remarkable life of service that spans over three decades in uniform, culminating as a commanding general in the Ohio Air National Guard. But Jim's story is far from typical. On September 11th 2001, he found himself piloting one of the very few military aircraft in American

1:50 skies during our nation's darkest hours. A mission that would change the trajectory of his life and his career. Beyond his military service. Jim comes from a family that revolutionized theoust DV, original fire the art of negotiation. His father, Jim Camp Sr., authored the influential book Start With No, challenging conventional wisdom about how agreements are reached. Now, Jim Jr. has written his own book, Lead From No, a systematic approach to leadership negotiation, bridging his military leadership experience with the negotiation system that's helped organizations secure deals worth billions. Today, we explore how leading and negotiating are fundamentally the same skill.

2:28 Why hearing no is actually the beginning of an opportunity, and how a systematic approach can transform how we build agreements with those we lead. Jim, welcome to Voice for Valor. It's great to have you here, my friend. It's great to see you again. Absolutely, sir. It is such an honor to have you here. I remember when I was a young major and you were a colonel, and here we are 10 years later. I'm a retired colonel, and you are a retired two-star major general. That's quite the accomplishment. So, you and I go back, our days serving together in the Air Force. For our listeners, just meeting you for the first time, take us back to the beginning. Take us through that journey from your early days in uniform to eventually wearing stars as a commanding general.

3:04 Okay. Well, like we were discussing earlier, you know, what's interesting when people join the military, there's a lot of circumstances that will typically push them in that direction. For me, when I was in college, I really didn't have an idea of what I wanted to do. I was, you know, considering aviation, but I really didn't have a passion for that. And then I saw this movie, and everybody's going to laugh, but I saw Top Gun. And I remember calling Jim Sr., who was an Air Force pilot himself when I was in college, and I said, hey, dad, I figured out what I wanted to do. And he said, I'm going to do this. And I said, I'm going to do this. And he said, I'm going to do this.

3:29 And I said, I'm going to do this. And he said, I'm going to do this. And I said, I'm going to do this. And he said, I'm going to go fly jets. And he kind of chuckled at first, and he's, you know, because I didn't have the best GPA in the world at Carnegie Mellon, but I certainly took his advice, followed his guidance, and I had a couple of friends of his that were a colonel in the Air Force, L.A. Bienvenu, who basically reached out and said, hey, Jim, if you want to do this, here's a step you have to take. So I did that while I was in college, and I joined the Ohio International Guard originally to fly A-7s. So I was real excited about that. I wasn't really

3:56 interested in flying heavies. But as luck has it, you know, when you're a young man, you don't realize when you put on the uniform, you know, service before self, right? So I went off to pilot training, and halfway through pilot training, found out that we were going to convert to KC-135s. So they're at Rickenbacker, the 121st Air Refueling Wing, so that was my home for about 25 years. So I came back flying part-time in the Air National Guard, flying tankers, and you know, like most young aviators, I was really focused on not just being good at my job, but I wanted to try to secure a job in the airline business. That's what I thought I wanted to do. So I did that. I got hired by United in

04:30 Flying for the Guard and the Airlines

4:30 19, 1997. Flew for them for, you know, a period of time. But all the while, while I was doing that, Jim Camp Sr., who actually resigned from FedEx in his early 50s, which is unheard of, became a negotiation expert and started working on his book. So I worked with him for, you know, the late 90s is when I really started, while I was trying to get my airline job. And once I started flying for the airline, we were kind of firing on all cylinders with the business. I was coaching negotiation with him, selling his training and coaching, flying for United, and then also flying for the airline. So I was kind of firing on all cylinders with the business. So I was kind of firing on all cylinders with the business. So I was kind of

5:03 flying quite a bit in the guard. In fact, I was so busy that I decided I was going to let one of those three things go. And believe it or not, I communicated to my leadership at Rickenbacker that I was going to take the uniform off. So my plan was to get out of the military one October, so a month after 9-11. And then obviously 9-11 happened, you know, really tragic day, but it was a turning point for me. Didn't really realize it at the time, but I remember when I landed after that sortie over the Pentagon on 9-11, I walked into my commander's office and I said, Hey, I know we're going to deploy now, and I better be the first guy on your list. And he

5:39 saw my intensity because I'm typically an intense guy. And he said, Okay, be careful what you wish for. So deployment after deployment, you know, we got really busy. No flies on in Turkey for a while for a big deployment. And then, of course, we deployed a couple days before Operation Iraqi Freedom kicked off in the Middle East. So I did that, jumped into aviation wholeheartedly with the military and, and believe it or not, decided about the time I was a major, I had 16 years in service, and I called United Airlines and told them that I was going to resign, which my friends, my family, even my father was kind of shocked, like, you sure about that? I mean, you're giving up a

6:16 pretty big career. And I said, I'd rather coach negotiation and be a leader in the military because I was a major at the time. And I said, Hey, I got four years left, right? So I'll have my 20 and 2010. And then one thing I'll say that we talked about before, every person I've ever met that's joined the military, they have a plan, and they are pretty confident on what it's like. And I don't think he's ready to take the uniform off either. And he wouldn't have predicted that these people in the military can't predict what they're going to do, right? They, you know, things come at them. And next thing you know, 34 years later, I just retired last March,

6:52 and did things that I never imagined I would do. It was just an incredible journey. Isn't it so odd that folks in the military, you walk in, for instance, my youngest son, he's scared of public speaking in the military, they push you into these uncomfortable environments, knowing that you are going to grow and develop out of them. And so I specifically remember us having a conversation, I was a major and you were a colonel, we were on the phone, and we were struggling with something that we're gonna talk about later in this, in this podcast. But you were like, Mike, I've had it. I don't know why I'm still doing this, when all these people are pushing against us. And both of us were just totally outside of our comfort zone. When it

7:27 came from you being, I think you were the chief of staff for the Ohio Air National Guard when you came out to work with us at Guard Bureau. Well, I got, so I was a squadron commander of flying tankers, which was kind of my goal to make squadron command, and a two-star general with that. And then I was the deputy director of human resources. And then I eventually became the director of human resources. But that was really tough, stepping out of the airplane, because I'm like, wait a minute, I'm a pilot, what am I doing working in personnel? But actually, when you and I met, I was pretty passionate about the pilot problem that we

08:00 September 11th — The Moment Everything Changed

8:01 had back then, and was just getting door shut on our face. I mean, they were just, they weren't, weren't even really willing to talk to us at first. And I remember the frustration we both had. And I just remember saying, well, I'll tell you what, I'm just going to hop on a military airplane, show up there in, there in DC and knock on doors until somebody would listen to us. So yeah, that was, I predicted that, right? I would have never voluntarily agreed, I thought, to leave flying an airplane to go into something I knew nothing about, which was personnel. But thank goodness I did. I learned more in, in that time period in my military career. And I was challenged. I learned more there than I would have if I stayed in

8:37 the cockpit. So I'm really glad I took that step. It paid off for me. But that's, that's what I learned. But that was a challenge. Doing something you're uncomfortable with is not easy. They push you into HR. They push me into A1, which is manpower as well. And rated management. So here I am trying to figure out pilot bonuses, retentions, how many pilots we need to send to pilot training. Totally outside of my comfort zone, right? I've been flying C-17s, I've been flying MQ-1s out of Las Vegas. And now I'm in this, this personnel world. And I was the only pilot amongst a hundred people on this, this personnel floor. So much so that they used to tease me whenever I was flying.

9:12 I wore my flight suit. They're like, oh, hey buddy, you're going to, you're going to fly that desk today. I'm like, well, occasionally I have to, I have to wear it because everything else is at the cleaners. I don't know if you remember this, but I found myself as the only director, director of human resources, you know, which every, every state in the guard has one. I was the only one that was a pilot and everybody was like, well, what are they doing? Putting a pilot in charge of human resources. And I remember when you and I went up there to DC, I said, hey Mike, let's, let's leave the flight suits at home. And we wore it. And I remember I could have worn my flight suit, but I never did. Cause I wanted to make sure

9:41 I was, you know, I. Meeting, meeting my folks at the ground level. Um, so yeah, I, I know how you felt, but it was interesting because our two unique skill sets brought us together to handle what I think was one of the biggest strategic problems that the guard was facing. And I'm, I'm really thankful that that worked out. I completely agree with you. And before I get too far into what we, what we accomplished from a pilot perspective, a lot of our folks are interested in nine 11. And so I wanted to just circle back to where you are flying to the Pentagon after it's been, been attacked. Can you talk the typical. Person that's just sitting a passenger, you know, on that United Airlines flight, can

10:17 you describe to them what that is like to be flying that Casey one 35 to the Pentagon seeing the wreckage below? Yeah, no, it was surreal. I mean, uh, I remember I was in Newark, New Jersey, uh, two days before nine 11, um, basically, you know, co-pilot on a seven 67. Right. So I was there. Um, can't really get too much into it. In fact, I didn't really mention it in my book, but we did have a verified with the FBI. We did have a couple of folks on our aircraft. We had a couple of folks on our aircraft. They were jump seating with fake airline credentials trying to gain intelligence. Um, so that was when I realized when I woke up on September 11th and drove into Rickenbacker's normal training day, you know how it is when you're

10:58 not on the flying schedule, but I knew if I showed up, I could jump on a flight and get some training done. So I walked into the flight room, but when I pulled up to the gate, I noticed there was a different, I listened to the radio on the way to work. And I heard, you know, an airplane hit the first tower. Uh, I think I was listening to Howard Stern and I thought to myself, awesome smaller aircraft, right. Who knows what happened? Maybe, maybe it was intentional. Maybe it wasn't. But. I heard the first tower. I think I was listening to Howard Stern and I thought, oh, it's the first tower was hit, but it didn't concern me that much. Cause I didn't understand the scope. Uh, but by the time I got to the front gate, the front gate was

11:23 on lockdown and I went into the flight room and about the time I walked in, uh, not, not long after that, the second airplane hit. And that's when all of us knew that it was deliberate. You know, we knew that this was a game changer. Um, and obviously it's very close for me, right. I mean, I'm getting ready to leave the military. I'm a pilot for United and we just lost, you know, two, you know, we ended up losing two United aircraft that day. Um, I didn't know any of the crew members, but obviously it's a real it's terrible feeling. Um, and, you know, watching the, the responders on television and just what the American people were going through. I just turned over and looked over my shoulder and squadron commander

11:56 walked in and said, Hey Jim, grab a copilot, grab a boom operator, take the alert aircraft to the Pentagon right now, like right now, no flight orders, no crew brief, nothing. So we scrambled as fast as we could to get out to the airplane. And, um, I remember the, we typically takes about an hour to pre-flight at KC-135 and I think we were airborne in 20 minutes, uh, which is really fast. And I know that we forgot a few of our checklist items cause we're in such a rush. In fact, the takeoff warning horn was going off as I'm rolling down the runway full of fuel and, uh, looked down and saw the speed brakes were up. So I pushed the speed brake lever down.

12:28 It was just up a little, uh, we rotated and the guy's like, Hey, you guys are cleared East, any altitude, any airspeed. And that was kind of eerie, right. Being basically one of the only aircraft airborne East of the Mississippi, because of our response time. I mean, we were, we happened to have an airplane on alert. So that's a, a really good, you know, it's cocked on and ready to go. And as we were approaching, um, I could see the smoke from a distance and immediately giant killer came up, you know, the Northeastern defense sector and asked us to. Verify who we were, uh, and he had a pretty serious tone in his voice. And then I realized I blew it. Uh, I didn't blame my boom operator because he was young, uh, but we didn't

13:03 grab our secrets out of the command post. So we're flying in the blind. We have no way of authenticating. And that was a pretty stressful moment for us. Um, uh, that was, uh, I consider that a negotiation that's time. Uh, but I basically, sometimes most effective way to negotiate is to tell the truth and in the, in the clear, I just said, Hey, this is captain Jim camp. This is what I did. I made a huge mistake. I didn't grab my secrets. I'm full of gas and I'm gonna lower the boom. And I looked at the Viper flight lead, uh, at the time. And cause they had launched an alert and I gave him the, you know, the refueling signal with my left hand and popped him a solid and cause I think they were

13:35 breathing heavy, they were like, what are we gonna do with this tanker? We can't verify who they are. And as you know, that's, that's not a good situation. Um, my co-pilot was white. He was white as he's a full Colonel now, but he was white as a sheet. And I just said, I'll take the radios. I'll handle it. So we did our, did our mission. Uh, then we were speechless on the way home. Nobody talked. I mean, it was just, we were, we were trying to mentally process what just happened. Right. And seeing the Pentagon. I'm on a clear day. Yeah. We weren't very high. I mean, I could see everything, all the responders. It was just, it's an image that I'll never forget.

14:00 The Image He'll Never Forget

14:02 And, and obviously it drove my decision-making for a long time. So it was a heck of a day. One of our fellow aviators, General Sasseville, he was one of those F-16s that was following flight 93. Right. And was, and was directed if it turned back towards, you know, a populated area to take down that aircraft. So to think about those F-16 pilots and here they are looking at a US KC-135 aircraft, that's not able. To respond over through classified means. I mean, they were probably just as sweaty in the seat as you guys were. For sure. Sure. I was, I was expecting to be escorted at a minimum. Right. But then they realized when, I don't know, I think, you know, when you just say,

14:39 Hey, I blew it guys, it's, it's on me. And, you know, and I even said, we did everything. We couldn't get here as quick as we could. I mean, we were flying as fast as we could go to get there. Um, it's just one of those things, very fortunate it worked out. Uh, but yeah, I can't imagine, uh, what, you know, General Sasseville and I have discussed his thing briefly. Don't get to talk. To him much, but I have met him a few times, a couple of times. And, uh, yeah, that's just an incredible, uh, heavy situation. Well, indeed it is. And, he's my new boss. So I work at George Mason university in the rapid prototype research center and he's my boss, so I could see him all the time and he's just a remarkably humble man.

15:15 He, he is, it's been such an honor to work with him in uniform and now out of uniform working in the academia world. Right. But Jim earlier, you know, you were talking about your dad's book. And then now I want to ask about your book. I've watched commanders get selected throughout my career, as you have as well. And I know it's rarely a straight path. You mentioned hearing no several times before getting your first command assignment. Tell me about one of those no moments that actually opened a better door for you. Okay. Uh, so my first, um, you'll, you'll find this kind of funny. Cause I know you dealt with the air air force PT test, right? I mean, we all have to do that.

15:47 And, uh, I had issues with my Achilles. I severed my Achilles, but there was a, a squadron commander interview. So my first opportunity to jump at command at Rickenbacker and, uh, I, the doctor told me don't run on your leg, but the rule was, uh, you know, you're not going to be able to apply if you didn't have a current PT test, you're not going to be able to apply. So I went out and did a PT test. I passed, but I basically limped across the finish line. My wing commander was like, what are you doing? I go, I want to interview for this chip. If they had told me I would have finished third in the interview, I probably wouldn't have, you know, re re re or disattach my Achilles again.

16:16 Uh, so anyway, I, I interviewed for that. Didn't get it, but I wanted to participate in the interview process. I wanted to see kind of where I stood. Uh, and that was a really good eyeopening moment for me because I was able to negotiate feet. I said, Hey, I know you told me no, but it's really important to me. I just want to understand. Where I'm falling short, what I need to work on. What, what do you see as, you know, a good path for me? Um, and the feedback I got was, uh, incredibly honest. It hurt. I was told that I was too intense. Uh, the people were afraid of me because I, you know, very competitive and I didn't like it when people weren't accountable and, you know, so I was

16:48 kind of a, I guess, a loud dog in the yard, so to speak, and, um, I took that to heart and then I had an opportunity right after that, I went down to the 745th, uh, squadron down in AFSOC, uh, which was a guard C-26 squadron. I had a chance. I had a chance to go fly with those folks and deployed. Um, and ironically, when I was deployed in Afghanistan, uh, the commander back home, uh, decided to hang it up, uh, went back to their guard unit and there was a lot of, uh, I guess, turmoil in the C-26 community because the air force announced they were going to divest the aircraft while we were deployed and a lot of them didn't really have a full-time billet because it was a provisional squadron.

17:24 I know it's hard to explain, but essentially they were afraid of losing their job. So they asked me, the airmen in Afghanistan said, Hey, you need to put in for this job. Uh, and I said, well, how do I do that? I'm deployed in Afghanistan. And I decided I'd pick up the call, pick up the phone and call, uh, the commander of the AFSOC training center. So I did, and, uh, was able to be offered a job on that phone call. And he said, I'll meet you at the jet when you get home. So that was my first command. Right. And it was kind of by accident, but I'm really glad I did. Cause that was an incredible experience. Great airman. I mean, these, these folks were just, they should write a book about the 745.

17:54 What they, what those folks did in Iraq and Afghanistan was just unprecedented. We were the go-to manned ISR unit with all special forces. We had a great reputation. And I came back to Rickenbacker, right? And I said. And I had this really good OPR and you know, it's a performance rating for those that don't know. Um, and it was, I was stratified by a three-star. So I had a three-star general say, this guy's my number one squadron commander and, and the associated units in the guard. And I think there were 20 of them at the time. So when I came home again, uh, not humble enough discovered that I was not a shoe in for the flying squadron command job. I interviewed for it, um, did not get the job was pretty upset.

18:31 So that's my second no. And I essentially, you know, called the guy that got the job. His name, he's now a major general, Dave Johnson. He's the ATAC in Ohio. So he replaced me for very good friends, but at the time we were still as competitors. And I called him and said, Hey, I'll support you as your operations officer. And so I was his number two for a while. Um, and then the OSS squadron command position that I got turned down for the first time opened up and I was able to slide in there, um, while I was in that position and trying to figure out, you know, uh, where do I go next? I was turned down again for a group command. So I applied to be a group commander in the mission support group up in Mansfield.

19:04 Didn't get that job, got a bunch of feedback and the feedback. I got there was, Hey Jim, maybe you should think about doing something other than flying airplanes. So the door closed and I said, you know what? Okay. And I remember filling out this little questionnaire that I thought nobody will ever read this thing. I said, I was willing to go to state headquarters and general Mark Bartman. He was the ATAC at the time called me and he said, Hey, I want you, I want to talk to you about becoming the deputy human resource director. So I drove up there to talk to him. We had a conversation. And by the time I got home back to the Rickenbacker, I had an email saying

19:37 you're being command directed to the deputy HR. Okay. You're in the position of Beeler. Congratulations. You have 30 days to report. So just like that, the advice that I took from not getting my third command job, go do something to broaden yourself. I said, I was willing to do that. General Bartman picked up on that, saw my OPR and said, okay, you're coming to headquarters. And at the time it was tough to swallow. So I feel like the air force does a disservice from a leadership

20:00 Air Force vs Army — A Different Perspective

20:01 perspective compared to the army. I just recently interviewed a Apache helicopter pilot and he's put in these, these leadership positions as a, as a first lieutenant, whereas in the air force, we're that weapon system expert for so long that, you know, you going to get this HR experience, I imagine it just opened your eyes to so many other opportunities out there and it was a reminder that people are the mission. What do you think about that? Yeah, people are absolutely the mission. And I'll tell you what, I have another saying. I always tell people this. When you start to feel really comfortable in any job, any leadership role, whether you're a director of personnel, squadron commander, when you start to feel

20:34 comfortable, that's when you have to be ready to get comfortable being uncomfortable, because that's when it's time to roll, right? That's when it's time. To go push yourself, learn about different things. And I'll tell you what, when I left headquarters, I was given the option to be the wing commander at my old unit at the one 21st or the wing commander at Mansfield. So I was able to bypass group command and vice. And I chose Mansfield because I wanted to be able to reinvent myself. I wanted to be able to start fresh from all the mistakes I've made in the past. So I was able to jump in up there at Mansfield. And that was a challenge, right? Cause nobody knew me.

21:08 So I had a whole different set of problems. The fact is. The higher you go, the more, the more rocks you're putting in your backpack. And the reason that gets, it's a heavy climb is because you care about your people. If you don't care about your people and you're worried about your next job, then, you know, if I were in charge for a day, if I could find those that were more worried about their self-promotion than taking care of their people, I would pull them aside and say, Hey, if you're not worried about your folks, maybe, maybe it's time to move on. Cause it's not about you. It's about it's, it's everything, but you. So I find that real interesting.

21:37 And people, people see right through that when I was a OSS commander down in Charlotte, North Carolina, I spent. Weekends thinking about ways to improve my airman's life, whether that was trying to fake, trying to figure out creative leadership opportunities for them, schools for them to go to self-development programs. And my wife was like, God, this is like a full-time job. I mean, I figured I would see you on the weekends back in the C 17 days. You know, you were gone for two weeks, you're home for two weeks. You're gone for two weeks. She's like this new OSS command job. It's 24, seven. And I just said, you know, caring for people, it's a never ending job and it was just so satisfying.

22:10 So, I mean, yeah, and I think that I would not have. Been as comfortable or as successful in that job, if it hadn't been for being in rated management and working that personnel side and understanding the moving parts of the people. Yeah. Same here. That, that, that, the advantage of learning personnel, uh, was by far the most important aspect for me to go take on a wing. Hands down. Uh, so, so you, you, go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt you. I'm just incredibly grateful for general Bartman saying, Hey, I got an idea. Like, watch this, watch how this guy handles this. And I'm just glad that, uh, it worked out. One door closed, another open, and this one ended up being the best, the best door of all.

22:49 So you've, you've lived these two completely different separate worlds, right? You've got your military leadership and you have your negotiation coaching. Most people would see these as completely separate skills. When was that light bulb moment when you realized they're actually the same thing? Well, I would say from about the time I stepped into command, uh, especially, or even on staff deployment. Right. Uh, so I threw my hat in the ring for a lot of deployments as a staff officer, but when I stepped into command, uh, I, I kind of had an advantage that I didn't realize how impactful the advantage was, but you know how, when we, we fly airplanes or any, any, any skill set in the military, you're trained in a systematic way to do things right.

23:27 And you're, you know, it's, it's ingrained in you, right. Bold face. When you're a pilot, being able to memorize your bold face under duress, you know, in a, in a stressful situation was a great advantage that we gained, you know, that emotional control was as aviators. Right. What I discovered when I was a commander is that I had multiple agreements going on around me 24 seven. So having a background in negotiation with a, a systematic approach to negotiation. So I'm not gonna say that it's comparable to, you know, flying an airplane, but I, I had a, a systematic way of processing the agreement in my mind of who's a decision maker. What are the problems?

24:01 And I would run through my checklist in my head that we use coaching negotiation today, even today, and I would kind of break the problem down. And that helped me separate emotionally from the actual issue that I was dealing with. And I. Started to discover that I was negotiating every day. And I would argue that, look, I wasn't the best student in the world. I was a pretty good pilot. Um, I think I'm a pretty good natural leader, but I would have never gone through the progression that I did in my career without that systematic negotiation approach in, in place. And so I was negotiating all the time. And as I started to near the end of my career, I had many people telling me, you know, cuz I would handle problems in, in a closed door setting with my closest, uh, confidants.

24:40 Right. And I'd say, look, here's a checklist that we're gonna use for this. Meeting. And I, I would break it down in a systematic way based on a mindset, a structure of the system and behaviors. Here's how we're gonna behave and handle the situation. If I didn't have that in place, there's no way I would've gone to the level I did. I, cuz I, I wasn't that nobody, nobody in the state of Ohio ever expected, uh, that I would end up, you know, um, as fortunate as I was as a two star.

25:00 Rising to General — Nobody Expected It

25:05 I just never imagined it. Nobody did, but I credit it to having a systematic approach to, to negotiation, like ingrained in me. It was a habit pattern. Um, and then after some long conversations. With, um, my family and a lot of friends, you know, we have a lot of clients, uh, when, if I say the word negotiation, most people would say they start to think of, okay, a business deal. It's a sales negotiation, a procurement negotiation, a contract negotiation. Maybe it's an acquisition or it's a merger. Um, there's labor negotiations. Right. I did a little bit of that as HR, right. Dealing with labor unions. So I, I, there's all forms of negotiation and it just occurred to me one day that probably the most popular form of negotiation is, is leadership.

25:43 Leadership is a form of negotiation. Um, here's why, if you break the word negotiation down and you truly define what it means, it's an agreement between two or more parties with all parties having the right to veto. So it's two or more parties putting forth effort to reach an agreement and everybody has the right to say, no, if you're a leader and you take your followers for granted, that's a very fragile agreement. And I would say it's reinforced almost on a daily basis as a leader. I've watched people leave organizations left and right, because they're not inspired by their boss. They don't feel connected to their leaders. Right. And the leaders think they know everything.

26:18 And I developed a saying that leadership is not about your rank, title, position, or, or authority. Leadership is about connecting with your folks, understanding what drives their behavior and reaching agreements. And if you're not willing to give them the right to say, no, missing it, you're missing a huge opportunity because you know, as well as I do, if you get an order from a boss in a military, you're going to follow that order. Correct? Absolutely. But, but when you're operating in the gray and there maybe needs to be a policy change, or we're going to, we're going to completely. Turn directions, for example, and you know, we're all sudden shifting our total focus to China that requires like general CQ Brown.

26:57 I got to work with him in the Pacific for a month, incredible leader. And when I saw the way he was able to manage change and help those people decide to do that, he wasn't telling them to do it. He was helping them understand why it was important to make that shift. He was negotiating with them and he came to Mansfield one day, and this was really the catalyst for me. And he looked at all of our airmen at the 179th. They're shifting. They've shifted from C one thirties. To new cyber missions. And as the a tag in Ohio, I was part of that decision. And I told him we got to do this. This is a cutting edge thing. We've got to do it. I know it's painful losing airplanes so that I wasn't well liked for a little while there because I was in support of that.

27:34 But when he was talking to our airman, he said something really interesting to me. He goes, look, as airmen, regardless of your rank, stay respectful. You have your, your, your chain of command. I need you to feel confident to push ideas up the chain of command. And he said, you're going to hear the word no over and over and over. He goes, do not let that dissuade you. That's just a decision. He goes. If somebody is going to tell you, no, but if you really help analyze why it's important, next thing you know, you're going to get an exception to policy. Next thing you know, the policy is going to change. And then down the road, somebody is going to say, why the heck haven't we been doing it this way for the last 20 years?

28:06 Because that's what innovation is. It's you having the courage to hear the word. No. When I heard, I wish we worked together more because I feel the exact same way. I enjoy having people in the room that disagree with me. I enjoy the, the back and forth argument because it provides buy-in. I can't tell you how many meetings. I've come. To or gone to where the, the leader above me already had a predetermined solution plan of action, but just, you know, sidebar, Hey, come on in. We're going to have a meeting. What do you guys think about this? Knowing that our input didn't matter. So we didn't have buy-in, which makes it much more difficult to execute the policy that the leader's trying to implement.

28:42 And so, yeah, having that opportunity to disagree, I mean, Hey, you disagree. Like you said, the answer is still no. Thank you so much for your input at the next meeting. I full on expect you to come with other ideas. The answer still may be no, but don't lose faith in the program or the process just by the leader saying, no, I love that. I had, I think I had five executive officers, uh, when I was serving as a general and, uh, they all knew they, they learned the hard way that it was just a matter of time. I'm gonna, I'm gonna put them on the spot. And I already think I know the direction of them. Sometimes you go into a meeting and you go, okay, this is the direction I want to go, but I want everybody to collaborate with me and I want to help get buy-in.

29:18 I want to create vision of why, why we should, why they should reach an agreement to follow this and really, truly believe in it. And I thought I knew the. And I would wait and hope that somebody else would come up with the answer. And I go, you know what, if it were you, Mike, I'd say, Mike, that's a great idea. Um, we're gonna look into that. I think that's the direction we're gonna go. That was, I always liked to do that because it made them feel a part of it. But there were times actually where I really thought the direction I was gonna go was very clear. And a couple of my executive officers, I'd pull them aside and say, tell me what you think about this.

29:44 And it took them a while to get the confidence to say, uh, sir, are you out of your mind? That's not a good idea. And here's why. And I'm like, well, tell me more, keep going. And, uh, they knew that if. If I was pretty determined, I would tell them no. And I said, don't take offense to that. I really appreciate your feedback, but every single one of them at one point or another helped bail me out of something that would have been a colossal mistake and, you know, take a different approach, you know, so you're only as good as the people you put around you.

30:00 The People Who Bailed Him Out

30:09 But if you don't use the people you put around you truly, and you truly feel deep down that you need those people around you, if you really think you're sitting up on high and you're, you have all the answers, you know, um, that's not a growth mindset, you know, and then hubris can develop. And that's not a good thing either. Uh, so I, the higher I, the, the further I went with leadership, the more humble. That. I became, and I, if that, and that's why I stuck with it for so long. My parents, my dad, my brother, everybody partners in the negotiation business. You're like, what are you doing? You've got your 20 come back. And I said, guys, I'm having fun.

30:37 Right. Yeah. And that's, that's what it was all about. Yeah. So no regrets. Good for you, sir. Yep. Earlier, you, you briefly mentioned your, your four steps, but your, your negotiation checklist has these four steps that seem deceptively simple actually. But I'm curious which steps trip you up the most as in a leader's capacity when you're first trying. Trying to implement your system. So the, the first, the first thing we do, um, after we get, after we gain internal alignment, right? So before we go negotiate, you go through a process of what we call critical research, which isn't a required step, but it's, it's one of the things that I work with my clients on, but let's do some critical research.

31:15 Who are we negotiating with? What is it that you folks want from the deal? We've gotta get aligned on that, right? We're not gonna just pick something and then hope we meet in the middle that that doesn't work. We'll talk about that hopefully later, but what's our critical research. Let's get aligned. And then once we get aligned, we shift to our opponents. It's world, right? So the very first thing we do, and this is hard, this is the hardest, but it's the foundation of every negotiation that I've coached. It's the foundation of every agreement I've really been in is what's our mission and purpose. Our mission and purpose is not for our game. It's not the results that we're looking for.

31:47 So it sounds a little confusing, but it's, what are we trying to help the other side, the person we're negotiating with? I use the word opponent. That's not a negative, right? My six-year-old grandson is a staunch opponent of mine, right? Kids are the best negotiators by way. But what are we trying to help the other side see and discover so that how they benefit from the agreement that we're seeking? It's not about us. It's about them. So how do we identify the mission and purpose, like our mission and purpose talking to the, the teams up in DC about the pilot problem. We were trying to help them see and discover that by implementing a change to the policy of retaining technician instructor pilots, they could avoid catastrophic accidents in the future, which would maintain our readiness, save lives and provide long-term reliability, sustainability.

32:34 Yeah. For the air national guard pilot force period. That's not to our benefit, but we have to help them see it. And you can't let them, you can't tell anybody anything. You know, you almost, I don't know if you remember this, but we, we had to ask questions to help them discover what the problem was. Right. When they, when we look, we look at the database, Mike and Jim and all our positions are filled. I said, yeah, I understand that. But what's the experience level of all those positions? What's their tenure. How long have they been there? Well, we don't know. Well, is there a way to find that out? No, we're gonna have to do that the hard way. But I remember when they.

33:08 They plotted the experience. It should be a healthy bell curve of experience. We had a, you, we were hollow in the middle, which means we had a train wreck coming. So our mission and purpose was to help them see and discover through their eyes, their idea, not me presenting and be, cause you know how, if we just go at them and say, we got a huge problem. Well, they'll say, well, where's the vision? Like, I don't see the emotional vision of benefit here. So you, you know, there's four reasons why people don't say yes. It's either. They don't see it. They don't see the real problem. They don't see the benefit of fixing it, or they don't have the data to back it up or in our case, we found out a lot of them didn't have the level of.

33:40 Authority, right? That's a big risk. They didn't have level of authority to make the change or they're bluffing, you know, which I, but I think the hardest one for leadership of those four is creating that initial vision, the initial mission and purpose of what you're trying to help that individual see. So as a leader, that's one of the first things you have to figure out, but you can't just tell them you gotta help them see it for themselves. Um, in business and what, this is, what's really amazing. That first step is exactly what we're coaching our clients to do before a business merger or a meeting quit worrying about your results. How are you gonna help the other side with this deal?

34:12 It doesn't mean. You're. Giving things away, but what angle are you using to help them figure this out to see, okay, this might be beneficial for me as well. Um, so that's, that's the hardest one is creating that vision. I wish, obviously I wish I'd read your dad's book and then your book didn't exist at the time, but I wish it did because I specifically remember one person that we were arguing with. You know, she was saying, you know, pilots make so much money. It's disgusting. We don't need to, we don't need to change the number. And I was explaining, I said, well, economics, you know, one-on-one supply and demand there's, there's far a little supply and a huge demand.

34:43 For these pilots. So we have to meet that need me personally. I was thinking, okay, what's the win-win situation. So where everybody's happy. Can you talk about win-win in your method methodology? Sure. So what you just mentioned with, uh, the very nice young lady, uh, I mean, and you know, these, these were great people that we were, we were, of course, they, they, they mean, well, but it was difficult.

35:00 His Father's Negotiation Philosophy

35:02 Well, absolutely. So in our, our second step in our, in our checklist is okay. After we have our mission and purpose, we have to analyze the problems. Problems are anything that's gonna hinder us from reaching an agreement, right? So that's the first. The first thing we're gonna deal with. And underneath problems, we, we look at emotional baggage. So in that case, she had emotional baggage that pilots make too much money. Does that make sense? I mean, we have to, we almost have to put that on the table, uh, before we get into go any deeper. Now I mentioned results earlier, and if I ask you, what can you truly control? There's only two things that are valid, that are valid goals.

35:40 If I set out to negotiate, to get a win-win deal, how can I manage somebody else's win when I don't even have the ability to control my own win? Negotiation is a human performance event. It's no different than, uh, public speaking, right? You're gonna have, I used to have a, uh, executive officer that would grade me cuz I was terrified of speaking in front of crowds. I'm not anymore. But back then I was nervous as I mean, I hated it. Right. Once again, once again, getting you out of your comfort zone. Look at, look how much you've developed because of that. Right. But I couldn't control the win or the loss. I can't control whether or not I, I won that speech.

36:14 Was it really good? Maybe not. Sometimes I hit it out of the park, but a lot of times that was cuz I just went from the heart. So that's what I learned. Quit rehearsing and just go from the gut because people trust that. So I can't manage my wins and losses. We can practice all day long. We could go buy a professional football team right now, hire the best coaches, practice all day long. Are we guaranteed to win the Superbowl? No. So what can we manage? And the same thing holds true. How do I manage the win of the other side? What do I have to give something away to make them happy? That's what everybody believes. And compromise is deeply rooted in our country's mindset about negotiation.

36:47 Our company helps people avoid unnecessary compromise. We don't say compromise doesn't happen, but compromise is a. Mindset that's deeply ingrained. If I say, if you were to say to me, Hey, Jim, uh, I don't wanna buy your product. It's too expensive. Believe it or not. A lot of high powered business people today, if they hear that really talented people go, okay, well, where can we cut costs? How much margin can we afford to give away? And then they do it. And what's really sick about compromise is the moment you start doing it, your opponent expects more and more and more. And next thing, you know, you got your win-win deal, but you just gave everything away.

37:18 So is that really a win? So two things. Yeah. You're, you're diluting your product and you're diluting. Yeah. Yeah. And you're not answering just to yourself. There's people that run those companies. I always say, well, who do you work for? When I'm in a room of executives and they look around and they go, well, who's my, oh, my boss is over there. My other boss is over there. I'm like, no, you don't work for your bosses. You work for your people and you work for their families. That's the whole point of going to work and building a company is to make other people successful. So two things, activity and behavior. We can control when we show up at the practice field, we can control how we prepare for a deal.

37:52 We can control our decision-making. We can also control our. Demetri. Our level of respect and our posture. We don't use threats. We don't use leverage. We don't use take it or leave it. That's all amateur. When we see that when we coach teams and the other side is behaving that way, we love it because we're gonna, we're going to take advantage of that. Let them talk, let them think they're special because you know what, if they're seeking a win-win deal, they're gonna give away more than they think. So they're to me, uh, and this is what, when Jim senior wrote, start with no, it was like a shot heard around the world in the, in the academic community and the negotiation arena.

38:24 What do you mean? Win-win is, is garbage. And that's exactly why, cuz I can't control my win and I gotta make assumptions about what I have to give away to get the win on the other side. So win-win to me, it might happen. You may actually have a deal where it does work out that way, but you certainly can't seek it. You can't. And what happens? I'll go further. If you have a three and two count and you're at the plate and you're a little league, little league hitter, and your coach looks at you and says, Mike, you gotta get a hit buddy. If you don't, we're gonna lose a game. Is that gonna help you control your, your, your breathing? Is that gonna help you, you know, your activity?

38:59 No, I'm tight. I'm tightening up. I'm, I was already nervous. I had a three, two count. Now I'm, now I'm really nervous. When people get super nervous about achieving the results of a win-win deal, they're, they're actually hamstringing their, their activity and how they behave. And then they come across as needy and the same thing holds true as a leader. If you're too desperately trying to seek approval, you're not willing to be humble. You're not willing to make fun of yourself every chance you get, and you're really like losing your temper over something. And they, and your troops or your air, if they see it, you lose, you lose their respect, right?

39:27 You, you, you can't behave that way. Same thing holds in negotiations. So. The more. I. Dug into this painful year, writing this book, but the interconnect interconnected tissue here, uh, but I personally think every leader, their number one competency is their ability to reach agreements and sustain agreements with their people. Period. You mentioning respect leads me in, into my next question perfectly, especially from a leadership perspective, you were obviously leading more, a larger group of people than I was, but we both had to be leaders during COVID. So during that, that COVID vaccine mandate period, it, it was brutal for military leaders.

40:00 The COVID Vaccine Mandate and Leading Through It

40:00 You're standing in front of airmen who are ready to throw away their careers. Over whether they're going to take the shot or not take us into those town halls. What was the energy in the room? Like for you as a leader, trying to maintain that respect amongst that group. Yeah. So the, before we went into the town halls, uh, our team had to get aligned. So we had obviously a commander's meeting and I remember a couple of folks, um, and I love these people. These are the, I mean, these people are my friends now, now that we're not serving together, uh, but they were like, wait a minute, timeout. What do you mean? We're going to negotiate with our airmen. I said, we're going to negotiate with our airmen.

40:34 We're, we're going to give them the right to say no. And they said, well, wait a minute. The secretary of defense, we have a mandate that on this day, I think it was December. If they're not vaccinated, then we start the discharge process. I said, that's correct. I'm not disputing that, but we have 90 days and whether we like it or not, this is such an emotionally charged decision that until we can get the emotion out of the decision-making process the best we can, we're not going to be able to let them make a good intellectual decision. So we've also learned that in our system that best decisions are always made when you're at a neutral emotional stance.

41:05 So if they're extremely. Negative and they're, they're not going to do it. And we had airmen standing up on their desk and threatening them taking the uniform off now. And that was kind of contagious. It was, it was a, a lot of folks thought it was not the time to, to be nurturing and respectful, but I remember going into those town halls and, uh, I had chief Heidi bunker beside me. Thank goodness. Uh, and I said, Hey, keep me, keep me nurturing right now. I don't want to lose it on them, but I got to say, look, now's the time to talk about it. If you're not going to take the shot, that's okay. That's your decision. I can give you an order, but at the end of the day, if they want to break up with us, if they want to leave the ranks, they can do it.

41:40 Right. They, we can't, there's not much we can do other than say, Hey, we're going to make you take the uniform off, but I made a deal with them. I said, as long as all of you stay respectful and you're not spreading, you know, contagious opinions. I said, if we get to the end of this and you truly decide to take the uniform off and you say, no, that's okay. But if you've behaved respectfully, I personally will do everything I can in my career to help you, including letting you get back in the military if things change, but we have to face this problem. So I broke it down into a checklist, gave them the right to say no. And when they said, no, here's the power of giving somebody the right to say no, if you mean it.

42:13 Yeah. When they do say no out of respect, they will tell you what's behind their decision. So every no that I heard, it was either they didn't see the vision of benefit of doing it. Why should I get the shot? What's the benefit while working at Transcom as an advisor there, I knew that we weren't going to be able to deploy people around the world at a moment's notice because we have to traverse a bunch of countries. And if they require a vaccine mandate, we're not getting in. So maybe that was something I would ask questions. You know, how are we going to accomplish this global deployment posture? If Russia decides to shoot this Slovakian gap, what happens?

42:44 What if we can't get into place? I mean, you guys were just in Estonia. That are. 180th fighter wing. How are we going to do this? Oh, well maybe, yeah, I see that as a problem. Then maybe it's the data. The second reason people don't say yes, they didn't have the data to back up in their mind, whether or not the shot was safe. So maybe it was a matter of educating them and providing them data when they're not as fueled emotionally, but they were allowed to make a decision. And the brain is an interesting thing. When you make a decision, you immediately transition to intellect and then they have to justify their decision. Well, let's find out what's behind their decision.

43:15 And then the lack of authority, believe it or not, there was a lot of airmen that didn't have the authority to make the decision to. Roll. Up their sleeve. I had one airman come to me and he said, if I don't take, if I take the shot, my wife is going to divorce me and she won't have children with me. Oh, wow. And she meant it. And he was in tears when he told me that I had another airman telling me, if I take the shot, my parents are going to kick me out of the house because I'm going against their political beliefs. So we assume that they have the ability to make the decision, but what's going on behind the scenes, who else is impacting their decisions?

43:45 Same thing in a business negotiation, right? Who's impacting decisions. And then the fourth reason was their bluffing. And when it came down to it and the best way to call somebody's bluff was telling the truth and at the. Very final moment, I think my last town hall, I just said, look, if you're telling me that you're not going to take the shot, cause I took mine. Did I want to take it? No, but I did. I was a leader. I had to do it. And you know, I've been shot for so many things on so many deployments. I didn't know if they were putting in me. I thought the same thing. I was like, I've had anthrax, I've had all these other things. This can't possibly be any worse.

44:15 Yeah. So I created a little vision around that in the final hour. I said, look, here's the bottom line. And I said this in front of hundreds of airmen at the 180th fighter wing. I, you know, they, they were pretty staunch against the shot and our numbers initially were. Were atrocious atrocious. We thought we were gonna lose more airmen than any other state in the guard because they all said, no, I'm not taking it. Cause I wanted them to make a decision. But when we were at the one, the 180th and I said, look, um, if you're gonna step out of the deployment line, like literally if we get a call and we're deploying in 48 hours from now, which is what could happen.

44:45 If you're not gonna take your shots and you're gonna step out of the deployment line and you're literally gonna take your drop your bags and look at your brothers and sisters in arms and tell them, uh, good luck guys. I'm not going, I'm not taking a shot. If you're really that, that at that point, then I remember I created my own vision.

45:00 The Moment He Pointed at the Door

45:00 And, uh, my intensity came out and I pointed at the door and I said, I need you to walk out right now. I don't have any more time. It's decision time. I'm sorry. You've been respectful, but if you're not gonna do it, I need you to leave now. Cause I gotta replace you. That's my job. And I'm sorry. Anybody, anybody take you up on that offer? What's interesting. Uh, there were, obviously there were a couple of people that didn't take the shot, but our numbers after we went through the, all these town halls, this excruciating negotiation. I mean, we never, most states weren't sharing their data and I couldn't get it from the, the DC level, but I, but I knew we maintained, we, I think we were still.

45:32 Number one or number two, an end strength, even after our COVID losses. So we, we recouped a lot, uh, that I think we would have lost. Otherwise we just said, it's an order. Do what I tell you. Yeah. So there was room, there's room to negotiate. You give somebody the right to say no, even in a hostage situation. Uh, Chris Voss mentioned our book start with no, and his book never split the difference. We Jim camp senior coach, Chris Voss and the hostage negotiation team, the FBI. And that's how I discovered your dad's book. Me being a, an audible guy. I'm always, you know, DC traffic. I'm, I'm listening to books on tape rather than actually reading them. I was reading Chris Voss's book.

46:05 He talks about your dad's book. Then I listened to your dad's book and the details that your dad starts to describe in this book. He says, yeah, my son's this, this star athlete. He's a football player, but he ended up going to Carnegie Mellon and focusing on academics and then he became a pilot in the air force and I just started to, I was like, there's no way this guy is from Ohio. I know a camp from Ohio. Yeah, I just, it blew my mind to think that how small the world is that we've worked together all these years. And I had no idea. That your dad was this famous negotiator specialist that's helping the, you know, the FBI hostage rescue team. I mean, mind blown.

46:41 Yeah. I didn't talk about that. Yeah. I didn't try to, I wanted to keep the military separate from the negotiation world, but you know, the, my, the system was ingrained in me. I had a similar story. I was driving home from Toledo from one of those town halls, uh, with my executive officer, uh, Brittany Hensley. She's now a Lieutenant Colonel squadron commander. So super proud of her. Um, we're riding home and she's, she's very entrepreneurial. And, uh, we have a discussion in the car and, um, she was talking about what she's going to do outside of the military life and I encouraged her. I said, what makes you successful here will make you in the outside world, very successful.

47:09 It's just going to be, you got to go through that transition. She's and she was talking about her business and, uh, I said, yeah, she's like, what are you going to do, sir? And I said, uh, you know, I think I'm gonna go back in the negotiation coach and she's, oh yeah, there's this weird, the best negotiation book I've ever read. Is stark. I go, who wrote that? You know, just messing with her. She goes, and then she's kind of, she's like, what? No, I go. And it's James senior snow. It was pretty funny. That amazing negotiation book. Well, it was, it was, and then, then of course, you know, when are you going to write yours? Right. So I, I had a lot of people pulling on me to write a sequel, but obviously

47:41 my path is different than his. So, uh, but I just put a different, a different look on negotiation. Well, good on them for pushing you to write that book. So if someone is reading your book and they're just going to make one change to their leadership approach tomorrow morning, what would you want that change to be, um, on the way to work, remind yourself who you work for. You don't work for your boss. You report to your boss. You work for your people now. If you truly work for your people to an extent, I know it's impossible for me to know all 5,000 airmen in the Ohio international garden, that's never going to happen, right? I mean, that would be a stretch to, even if I set out to shake every single

48:16 person's hand and have a short conversation, it would consume an entire year. So I'm not suggesting that you have to know everybody in your, in your organization, but if you truly feel that you work for them, then the one thing that will make a huge difference is let your guard down and connect with those people and get to know who they are. If you don't know what a, what a good day looks like for them, you're not going to know what a bad day looks like. Yeah. If you don't. And you don't connect with your people. I think that's the number one reason right now that people are leaving organizations and moving on. They don't know anybody and, and the leaders don't pretend that they care.

48:46 I know they have a lot of responsibilities and other things to prioritize, but just taking the time to connect one-on-one with people is, is tremendously valuable, valuable. The other thing that happens when you take the time and connect with somebody that's well below your, your position, you know, they're, they're early in the organization, you may be highly tenured, you've been there forever. When you have those one-on-one conversations, that is an awesome time to kind of push your agenda and the messaging to them. And help them that one-on-one discussion, because they will take the information that you give them and they will tell their coworkers or their airmen that are

49:16 standing next to them, and they'll say this in the absence of direct, honest communication from the boss to their people, if you don't do that, they will make things up to fill the void. And that is catastrophic to any culture. So know who you work for, get to know your people and have those one-on-one conversations. It is not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of strength as a leader to, to take the time to do that, shake their hand and have some laughs. I hate that. I hate, sorry, like I, I sat up there at headquarters and I would watch people never go out to dinner or I'm sorry, lunch with subordinates and I'm like, what are you afraid of that they're not going to listen to you?

49:53 Sorry. I'm very passionate about that. I had a senior leader. We never once had coffee. We never once had lunch. We never once had dinner.

50:00 What Service Cost His Family

50:00 Didn't know my wife's name. Didn't know I had children. And I just, you know, as a senior military officer, you just respect, you know, you respect the, the chain of command, salute smartly and move forward. But I just thought you're missing out. Yeah. I just, you know, you're missing out on the buy-in that you could be getting from me by actually getting to know me and with younger airmen today, it's all about social media I had to learn and to appreciate social media because that is their, their avenue of getting information out. I've had airmen reach out to me. Hey, I need you to talk to, to, you know, to Jim because he just released a suicidal post or, Hey, you need to reach out to Tom because all of a sudden he's canceled

50:36 all of his social media. I'm very concerned about his wellbeing. I wouldn't have known that. Or, or. I've been involved with that. If I hadn't had that social media piece, of course, I don't do silly things on social media. I think I even have on my Facebook page. If you don't like seeing pictures of my, my family, my dog, or airmen that inspire me, I'm probably not the guy for you to follow, but it is a channel of communication that people still reach out to me this day that I haven't been involved with from a command perspective for years. Same here. Same here. Things, things come back to you and it's great. I mean, major Brittany Hensley, who's now Lieutenant Colonel, uh, reached out to me

51:09 recently. Hey, will you write me a letter of recommendation for graduates? School happy to do it. You know, that you don't, that kind of reward is, is extremely rare. If you don't know your people, it's not going to happen. Your picture on the wall means nothing. If you're not connected to the people that look at it. I totally agree. And so we've both gone through a lot of ups and downs. I had 24 years of service. I know that you had more than me, but looking back at your military journey, what moment made you think, you know, this is exactly why I stayed in uniform after 9 11. I think, uh, it's probably, I was at the 7 45th, the provisional squadron, which was

51:46 interesting because there were people from all different states. All the states were represented. So it was kind of a, uh, I don't want to say like a mercenary squadron. I mean, it was, but people were there from every single unit. So there wasn't as much natural cohesion because they didn't know each other that well. Uh, but I think the moment that made me stay in uniform when they were discussing shutting down the squadron, uh, but I knew our customer, you know, so calm, desperately needed our orbits and our man, dice, our platform. And I was on a conference call and I had general file, the three-star, uh, AFSOC commander sitting next to me and folks on the, uh, I'm not going to mention

52:20 who they were, but all the, all the high school. They ranking folks that you ran with at the guard bureau know me from this moment. But, uh, I remember general file said, Hey, do we need to shut the squadron down? Or can you guys sustain volunteerism? And, uh, I remember piping up and I said, the guard bureau's wrong. I'm sorry, sir, but they're wrong. I work for you. I'm on title 10 orders and AFSOC. You're my boss. Guard bureau's not my boss. You are. I said, our whole squadron stands ready to deploy at a moment's notice for the next year. We, our full unit will deploy for a year to back up this mission. And he took it serious. And every single person in our squadron volunteered.

52:53 I couldn't believe it. They were like, yeah, we'll go. Are you going? I said, yeah, I'm going to go. We didn't end up doing it because they ended up, you know, uh, they outranked the Lieutenant Colonel who had bright, really good ideas and they, they eventually wound the squadron down. But I think that was my proudest moment when, you know, I was like, okay, this is, this is why I'm doing what I'm doing, because these people don't even have jobs to come back to and they were so tight, we had such a tight group. And you know what? We had fun together. Right. That means a lot. I mean, for that squadron to all agree to go forth underneath your command. I mean, you've got to be very proud of that.

53:26 That is, that is a pretty awesome experience. That was, that, that was, that was, uh, one of many, I mean, he asked me an hour from now, I'll come up, I'm 58, right? So my iceberg shrinking, but an hour from now, I'll probably come up with a different story, but yeah, that was just super inspirational for me. That's when I made this decision. I go, I'm going to go as far as I'm going to keep this leadership up and keep going because I really enjoyed it. So Jim, as we, as we wrap up, I always ask this question to everybody that I interview in closing. What question have I not asked that you would like to share with the listeners today? Um, I'm assuming a lot of, a lot.

53:59 A lot of listeners are, are transitioning vets. Yeah. Well, um, there are many things, uh, I'll tell you what, I mean, I have the ability to give every single veteran that wants a copy of my dad's second book. Cause we own the rights to that on audible, uh, hit that second book is titled, no, the only system of negotiation you need for working home. It's a great book. It's a follow on to start with. No. Um, how can I help the veterans that are struggling, trying to make that transition from, you know, military to the civilian world. And so that would be the question. If you ask. Me, Jim, can you help these people? I'll give every single one of them a copy of our book.

54:36 If they call me, I'll talk to them. We'll help them. Uh, I hope they'll have the courage to read my book. I've got good reviews so far, so hopefully they find it valuable, but I'll leave it with. The, the things that make you a really strong, effective leader are hand in hand with things that make you an effective negotiator. So if you're already a good leader, you can always get better, but you're gonna need to negotiate in life, especially in the business world when you make that shift. So for those that are getting ready to punch and get ready to roll with their

55:00 Advice for Those Getting Ready to Roll

55:01 careers, regardless of what that is. Keep it, keep a growth mindset. And if you reach out to me at camp negotiations, I'll figure out a way to help you. So that would be the only thing I would say, Mike, I, I would love to figure out a way to give back, um, you know, cuz it, it's a, it's a tough transition. I'm telling you, taking off the uniform was, I'm sure you, you felt it. There's no easy way to do it. It was an emotional roller coaster. My wife, she said that I just, she just had to pretend that I had, you know, bipolar disorder for a year because she says you would come home with all these different ideas. Hey, we're gonna open a franchise. Hey, we're gonna do a small business.

55:30 Hey, I'm gonna go work for Lockheed Martin. Hey, I'm gonna go to the airlines. I mean, it was just all over the place. She would just sit there and be like, huh? Uh-huh. Okay. We'll, we'll see how it goes. Thank you until the next crazy idea came, came home. So yeah, I completely agree with you and it, the transition is so difficult and that's why I'm always here for folks, whether that's helping them on their LinkedIn pages, help introducing them, working on their resumes. I'm just, I'm just here to help as well. And your book, your, your lead from notebook is on my website, but I will also add any other books or material from your, from your website, from the camp

56:01 system to share. To, to, to vector them towards your system, because you are absolutely right. My goodness, leadership and negotiation, negotiation are hand in hand. Yeah. So, so thank you, Jim. I really do appreciate this. Yeah. And I look forward to seeing you in person next time. Okay, buddy. Thank you, sir. See you. All right. We'll see. Bye.